Desolation rework proposal - by LG

[Lord Gorgon]

Subject of the day is my beloved desolation.

Desolation is the only epic tier energy free heat weapon. Dual desolation builds are very accessible and can accomodate variants going from very f2p to hard p2w. Very evolutive.

Thid used to be the bread and butter of any access damage oriented heat player.

We see less and less claws (range denial of those was one of the approaches to properly use desolation), more and more high HP and resistances, desolation became somehow obsolete.

I propose a rework of this weapon.

- add 15% damage

- add 20% heat generation

Feel free to participate to the pole and to leave some comments.

Thanks, LG 

[Bluz]

I like the sound of that! I may come out a bit biased since I myself run a Dual Desolation build, but these proposed values do make sense even to the perspective of someone who has never touched a Desolation.

I did the maths, and the final damage value for our hypothetical buffed Desolation would be around 298-440 (please do correct me if there are miscalculations). If anybody here thinks that it may be a bit too much as its damage is very similar to the damage output of a Spartan Carnage (286-490), hear this out: the Desolation weighs 15 kg more than a Spartan, while also having a more complex range, and twice the heat generation.  

Either way, I do honestly think that we should up its weight a bit in addition to the heat generation cost increase. Probably increase it from 66 kg to 68 kg (or even up to 70 kg) so it can at least have a balancing factor. 

Whatever path would be taken, I'm sure people would like to see one of the most reliable weapons that an F2P player could run receive some love. Would also motivate people more to try out new builds with energy free heat mechs, and not just Burning Showers everywhere.  

[Tirreggregars]

I agree, it desperately needs a buff. It is completely useless at higher ranks as of now. Most high rank player (playing a monkey) have minimum 2.8k hp, and 89 heat resistance. Supposing you have an active drone, per say flame spear, and you always hit maximum damage, with no movement whatsoever, and your drone is always in range; the following scenario would occur:

Turn 1:

 

 

Activate Drone: 240 damage

HP of opponent, starts at 3k: is now 2.76k

Res is now 82

Your heat is now: 50

Opponent heat is now: 68

 

Turn 2:

 

Dual Deso activation, and drone hits:

301+311+267=879

Hp is now: 1881

Res is now 55

Your heat is now: 212

Opponent heat is now: 254

 

Turn 3: 

 

Dual deso activation, and drone hits:

328+338+294=960

Hp is now:921

Res is now: 28

Your heat is now: 370

Opponent heat is now: 440

 

Turn 4:

 

Dual deso activation (last uses), and drone hits:

355+365+321=1041

Opponent is now dead (-121 hp)

Res is 1

 

So in the best possible scenario with the highest damage dealing heat drone, with no movement, full usage, no overheating on your part, and maximum hits at all times, and an opponent with relatively low health and low resistance (if they use a fortress will be higher), the dual deso player barely manages to kill him off. A 15% percent damage increase is rather small.l I think it would need a 25% damage increase, but no heat generation increase. Because the heat generation is a side effect, and is useful to make your opponent skip 1-2 turns each match, giving you the damage edge you need.

14 minutes ago, Bluz said:

I like the sound of that! I may come out a bit biased since I myself run a Dual Desolation build, but these proposed values do make sense even to the perspective of someone who has never touched a Desolation.

I did the maths, and the final damage value for our hypothetical buffed Desolation would be around 298-440 (please do correct me if there are miscalculations). If anybody here thinks that it may be a bit too much as its damage is very similar to the damage output of a Spartan Carnage (286-490), hear this out: the Desolation weighs 15 kg more than a Spartan, while also having a more complex range, and twice the heat generation.  

Either way, I do honestly think that we should up its weight a bit in addition to the heat generation cost increase. Probably increase it from 66 kg to 68 kg (or even up to 70 kg) so it can at least have a balancing factor. 

Whatever path would be taken, I'm sure people would like to see one of the most reliable weapons that an F2P player could run receive some love. Would also motivate people more to try out new builds with energy free heat mechs, and not just Burning Showers everywhere.  

The main difference between spartan and deso is the resistance drainage, which makes spartan a lot stronger. However a small weioght increase would also be ideal.

 

(btw i'm not a dual deso player but I agree with you)

[A Happy F4ce]

we're gonna make old kunts great again, and I tell you what folks, we're gonna make the fratics pay for it.

[Shoultz262]

Desolation is already a decent weapon, I don't really think it needs a buff. Plus, it's not supposed to be as good as premium items like burning shower either. Buffing desolation that much will make it broken, because it's energy free and also does heat damage at the same time, with the explosive damage of spartan carnage. The range isn't a problem if you use a push weapon like repulser or use rollers so I don't see how it would be balanced. Plus, supreme cannon and abomination, which deals similar damage to it currently and isn't energy free, will be completely outclassed. Furthermore, heat is not an issue in top ranks right now, simply because of energy free damage mechs and huggers, now with swoop.

[fig]

@Lord Gorgon

Compare the stats of Mighty cannon wich is L+ weapon with desos stats 
You will see that you are asking deso to have the same lowest damage with the mighty cannon .
Also you will realise that mighty cannon have no res reduce  wich considered to be the phys advantage 
Deso from the other hand have res reduse its energy free plus its heat damage !...so....its a joke this sudgestion really .

Edited January 11, 2021 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[Grosboss]

 c'est une arme épique 

Je pense que 66 kg réduisent 53  kg ou 48  augmentent la chaleur de 70.

donc un autre légendaire avec de l'énergie, c'est vraiment ridicule 

[fig]

Right now deso is a a farrrr better weapon even than mighty cannon wich is L+ !!!

[SawzAll]

Like I said, every time one weapon gets buffed, all those using other weapons ask for theirs to be buffed next.

I'm 100% against this buff.  Desolation is already powerful enough.

Edited January 11, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[firewater789]

If we are not going to nerf frantic even more then I suggest we buff deso. There needs to be items that can get rank 1 without being meta

[Mechzilla]

20 hours ago, Lord Gorgon said:

Subject of the day is my beloved desolation.

Desolation is the only epic tier energy free heat weapon. Dual desolation builds are very accessible and can accomodate variants going from very f2p to hard p2w. Very evolutive.

Thid used to be the bread and butter of any access damage oriented heat player.

We see less and less claws (range denial of those was one of the approaches to properly use desolation), more and more high HP and resistances, desolation became somehow obsolete.

I propose a rework of this weapon.

- add 15% damage

- add 20% heat generation

Feel free to participate to the pole and to leave some comments.

Thanks, LG 

In the era of overpowered phys and weak energy mechs, a necessary buff to Desolation would do a lot for F2P pilots and add some much needed diversity to usable items in my opinion... +15% damage and +20% heat gen may not be enough, however. Theoretically, a player could use 6 Desolation shots against an opponent with 142 explosive/heat resistance and 3000 HP and not have enough shots left to kill.

The math does not work out to make the item usable even with a 20% buff, given the use of fortress resistance mods (remove 117-142 damage from each Deso hit).

Weight reduction is another issue. It’s heavy to have such bad stats in this era. Desolation build will get murdered because it’s too heavy to allow multiple utilities, even if combined mods can power dual teleport. Looks like a 1972 Volkswagen Bug compared to current heat weapons. Could be useful with help.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Mechzilla (see edit history)

[Se77en]

Why not just compensate players that showed no signs of hacking a fair value compensation for what was stolen ? Oh yeah that never happened . Just throw me off here . 

[Mechzilla]

22 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

Desolation is already a decent weapon, I don't really think it needs a buff. Plus, it's not supposed to be as good as premium items like burning shower either. Buffing desolation that much will make it broken, because it's energy free and also does heat damage at the same time, with the explosive damage of spartan carnage. The range isn't a problem if you use a push weapon like repulser or use rollers so I don't see how it would be balanced. Plus, supreme cannon and abomination, which deals similar damage to it currently and isn't energy free, will be completely outclassed. Furthermore, heat is not an issue in top ranks right now, simply because of energy free damage mechs and huggers, now with swoop.

Until I see a diverse mix of builds and items in top 10, it is difficult for me to accept that the game is balanced. That’s what we are here for... To help balance items stats so that each user can be competitive, not simply decent. “Decent” can also mean weak when it comes to items, and at least 2/3rds of most players inventories of max myth items are useless. Start counting common, rare, epic and legendary items and the numbers skew exponentially toward unusable items.

Balance.

[Androphonia]

this is basically saying "let's just forget about all those poor underused l-ms and let's buff something that's going to be overpowered once it gets buffed, if compared to present day average l-ms"

[Shoultz262]

1 hour ago, Mechzilla said:

Until I see a diverse mix of builds and items in top 10, it is difficult for me to accept that the game is balanced. That’s what we are here for... To help balance items stats so that each user can be competitive, not simply decent. “Decent” can also mean weak when it comes to items, and at least 2/3rds of most players inventories of max myth items are useless. Start counting common, rare, epic and legendary items and the numbers skew exponentially toward unusable items.

Balance.

Being balanced doesn't mean overbuffing an item that doesn't really need a buff to become broken and be as good as premium items. That's not balance. And before long, supreme cannon and abomination will probably get requested for a buff as well because they both do similar damage to desolation. Just no.

Premium items are supposed to be better than regular items. Burning shower is SUPPOSED to be better than desolation.

[Turtle]

Burning Shower has a different purpose than Desolation though.

You don't see anyone using Desolations for their dual Sorrow build, do you? No, because that simply doesn't work as well as having a Burning Shower that pulls enemies closer.

[Shoultz262]

Just now, Turtle said:

Burning Shower has a different purpose than Desolation though.

You don't see anyone using Desolations for their dual Sorrow build, do you? No, because that simply doesn't work as well as having a Burning Shower that pulls enemies closer.

That's not the point though, the point is that premiums are supposed to be better than regular items. Making desolation as good as a premium item isn't right.

[Turtle]

But in my opinion, it wouldn't be as good as Burning Shower still because there's no pull involved with a desolation.

[Shoultz262]

3 minutes ago, Turtle said:

But in my opinion, it wouldn't be as good as Burning Shower still because there's no pull involved with a desolation.

Can you see the stats they want to buff it into? Tell me that about the same damage of spartan and is energy free isn't broken. I don't see how overbuffing an item will bring "balance" into top ranks.

Meanwhile energy is still the worst element, yet they want to buff heat.

[Turtle]

I mean maybe 15% additional damage is not necessary, and you're right, energy still needs all the help it can get.

[HeIIfire]

Bru You're talking about buffing heat, when heat is fine? Yes no such thing as energy anymore because it's become useless, and receives little to no attention.

[Shoultz262]

1 minute ago, Turtle said:

I mean maybe 15% additional damage is not necessary, and you're right, energy still needs all the help it can get.

Exactly, the only thing that deso might need a buff on is a small increase in heat generation so that it's the same as supreme cannon.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Shoultz262 (see edit history)

[fig]

Guys ...what are we talking about ? 

You are trying to make deso have same minimum damage with mighty cannon ( example ) which is a phys L+ weapon ?

I would say yes to deso buff BUT ....before that at first the recent buffs must be tested in depth .
On the other hand I am sure gato already have a program sceduled about the first balancing which havent ended yet .

Look arround you ....check the weapons ....you will see that are many weapons that are first on the line of priorities .

Buffing deso is out of subject for now as for me .

And again ....can deso have same min damage with mighty cannon ? 
Because thats what ou are saying .

For now I would say yes ONLY to a  weight buff which could be 10/15 weight lesser .
But again ...it isnt a priority ! 

PS : Dont forget that heat mechs had a SERIOUS BUFF already ...and yes I am talking about the last balance . Heat mechs already get on the META arena ! dont forget that ! The last balance change made heats have even 80 more physical resistance ! which is ...a huuugeee thing !....together with heats overheating advantage made em OP already ! ...look arround you ....you see everywhere heat mechs even from this first week !

Edited January 12, 2021 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[That1Guy]

All I'm going to say about this is that our goal in rebalancing items is to make all items viable. I'm avoiding the word meta because a meta is what we're trying to avoid. Deso is not as good as other weapons. True, premiums should be slightly better, but only very slightly. Like, divine boost slightly. Yes, @TALΩS, the proposed buff would give it the same minimum damage as mighty cannon. But mighty cannon is also not nearly as viable as other physical top weapons. JUST BECAUSE ONLY A DESO BUFF WAS PROPOSED HERE DOES NOT MEAN ONLY DESO WILL BE BUFFED.

[Shoultz262]

15 minutes ago, That1Guy said:

All I'm going to say about this is that our goal in rebalancing items is to make all items viable. I'm avoiding the word meta because a meta is what we're trying to avoid. Deso is not as good as other weapons. True, premiums should be slightly better, but only very slightly. Like, divine boost slightly. Yes, @TALΩS, the proposed buff would give it the same minimum damage as mighty cannon. But mighty cannon is also not nearly as viable as other physical top weapons. JUST BECAUSE ONLY A DESO BUFF WAS PROPOSED HERE DOES NOT MEAN ONLY DESO WILL BE BUFFED.

So let me get this right, you want to make desolation viable in the current meta in simple terms. And if premiums are only better at divine because of the extra boost, what's the point of using them if a divined regular item, which is far more easy to get, is better than a non divined premium, because legy relics are very hard to get. And this is why I don't want a deso buff, because then you'll buff everything else, and so the cycles continues.

@That1Guy So do you think deso will be broken after the buff? About the same damage as spartan and is energy free? It's pretty obvious what the answer is though.