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Desolation rework proposal - by LG


Lord Gorgon

Does desolation need a buff?  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. Does desolation need a buff?

    • Yes, with the proposed values
    • Yes, but with different values
    • No, the weapon is fine
  2. 2. You really are an old kunt



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13 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

So let me get this right, you want to make desolation viable in the current meta in simple terms. And if premiums are only better at divine because of the extra boost, what's the point of using them if a divined regular item, which is far more easy to get, is better than a non divined premium, because legy relics are very hard to get. And this is why I don't want a deso buff, because then you'll buff everything else, and so the cycles continues.

@That1Guy So do you think deso will be broken after the buff? About the same damage as spartan and is energy free? It's pretty obvious what the answer is though.

That's not what I'm saying about divine. What I'm trying to say is comparing premium to non-premium should be like comparing divine to non-divine. Better, but you don't absolutely need premiums to survive. And no, I don't think deso will be broken. Even though comparing to Spartan is pointless, since they aren't used in the same way, I'll do it anyways. Deso is in a much trickier range to maneuver into(4-8). Most battles occur in ranges 1-4. In addition, even with the new buff, it weighs 15 more than Spartan, which is actually a lot. It also has massive heat cost in exchange for being en free. If we assume that putting Spartan on a mech puts it at exactly 1000kg, Using deso, you would have to drop something, most likely a cooling or regen booster. So essentially, you're losing 65 cooling/regen even without buffs just trying to fit it on, plus, it's also much harder to get in range, typically involving wasting at least one turn using a utility or repulser. The new buff will make it viable and competitive in top ranks, where its damage output just isn't high enough, even though it's a damage-based weapon.

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Just now, That1Guy said:

That's not what I'm saying about divine. What I'm trying to say is comparing premium to non-premium should be like comparing divine to non-divine. Better, but you don't absolutely need premiums to survive. And no, I don't think deso will be broken. Even though comparing to Spartan is pointless, since they aren't used in the same way, I'll do it anyways. Deso is in a much trickier range to maneuver into(4-8). Most battles occur in ranges 1-4. In addition, even with the new buff, it weighs 15 more than Spartan, which is actually a lot. It also has massive heat cost in exchange for being en free. If we assume that putting Spartan on a mech puts it at exactly 1000kg, Using deso, you would have to drop something, most likely a cooling or regen booster. So essentially, you're losing 65 cooling/regen even without buffs just trying to fit it on, plus, it's also much harder to get in range, typically involving wasting at least one turn using a utility or repulser. The new buff will make it viable and competitive in top ranks, where its damage output just isn't high enough, even though it's a damage-based weapon.

Please, the range can be solved with push weapons like repulser or rollers. The heat cost isn't that high for a energy free weapon. So I was right, you just want to make it into a meta weapon.

And apparently, something like a energy free spartan doesn't seem broken to you.

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1 minute ago, Shoultz262 said:

Please, the range can be solved with push weapons like repulser or rollers. The heat cost isn't that high for a energy free weapon. So I was right, you just want to make it into a meta weapon.

And apparently, something like a energy free spartan doesn't seem broken to you.

Yes, the range can be solved, but that involves wasting a turn. Yes, I want to make it a meta weapon. I want every weapon to be a meta weapon. And yes, it's en free, but it simply doesn't deal enough damage, statistically, to survive in top ranks. It's also extremely heavy. Apparently, spending 15 weight to make something energy free seems broken to you. Statistically, Spartan uses 31 energy per shot. Assuming you drop a regen booster to make room for deso, you lose at least 65 regen, so it's almost as if it costs 65 energy per shot.

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Just now, That1Guy said:

Yes, the range can be solved, but that involves wasting a turn. Yes, I want to make it a meta weapon. I want every weapon to be a meta weapon. And yes, it's en free, but it simply doesn't deal enough damage, statistically, to survive in top ranks. It's also extremely heavy. Apparently, spending 15 weight to make something energy free seems broken to you. Statistically, Spartan uses 31 energy per shot. Assuming you drop a regen booster to make room for deso, you lose at least 65 regen, so it's almost as if it costs 65 energy per shot.

Yes, deso will be broken, especially against energy mechs with low health. And the absence of energy cost allows you to focus more on res and health, which is why most energy free heat mechs are very tanky, except against energy free physical mechs. But go ahead, buff heat when it's still perfectly good with volcano mechs and now heat huggers with swoop, and just leave energy as the worst element. Yes, such a great decision.

And if you say you want every weapon to be meta, why not buff emp or valiant? Or I don't know, hell, even frantics. That's all you want right? Something aren't meant to be meta, what don't you get?

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1 minute ago, Shoultz262 said:

Yes, deso will be broken, especially against energy mechs with low health. And the absence of energy cost allows you to focus more on res and health, which is why most energy free heat mechs are very tanky, except against energy free physical mechs. But go ahead, buff heat when it's still perfectly good with volcano mechs and now heat huggers with swoop, and just leave energy as the worst element. Yes, such a great decision.

Once again, you act like this is the only thing we're going to buff. Energy will get buffed. These things take time. Deso does need a buff though. Unless you have spare weight, which rarely happens in top ranks, deso replaces energy cost with dropping a module or utility, plus, as a damage-based weapon, it's not very good, since it can't actually kill the average top rank mech, which has at least 3.5k HP.

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4 minutes ago, That1Guy said:

Once again, you act like this is the only thing we're going to buff. Energy will get buffed. These things take time. Deso does need a buff though. Unless you have spare weight, which rarely happens in top ranks, deso replaces energy cost with dropping a module or utility, plus, as a damage-based weapon, it's not very good, since it can't actually kill the average top rank mech, which has at least 3.5k HP.

What I don't get is instead of buffing energy weapons right now, which is the weakest element, you want to buff something that'll just make energy worse currently. And heat doesn't really need a buff right now.

How does that make sense?

Edited by Shoultz262 (see edit history)
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Just now, Shoultz262 said:

What I don't get is instead of buffing energy weapons right now, which is the weakest element, you want to buff something that'll just make energy worse currently. And heat doesn't really need a buff rught now.

How does that make sense?

Again, you're acting like this is the only buff. Currently, we're buffing around 5-10 items at a time. Also, heat as a whole doesn't need a buff, but then again, phys definitely doesn't need a buff, and yet I think even you can agree that desert fury does, despite being phys.

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1 minute ago, That1Guy said:

Again, you're acting like this is the only buff. Currently, we're buffing around 5-10 items at a time. Also, heat as a whole doesn't need a buff, but then again, phys definitely doesn't need a buff, and yet I think even you can agree that desert fury does, despite being phys.

I do agree with that, but there should be priorities. Buffing deso or desert fury won't change much right now and could be delayed, while buffing energy will have the greatest effect.

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The intention of this topic is very good, I adhere to 100 x 100.

However, this weapon was nerfed for a very petty reason that the f2p player didn´t deserve to have a VIP weapon. Mohadib thought it was too good to be an epic weapon.

I wish I had some evidence that the current administration is trying to help the f2p player, but so far I have not.

firma.jpg.5ad7ed7596a81f94ed0e4ad194f78bfb.jpg

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No that is actually wrong, the reason is the lack of strong non L-M energy free weapons, which are limited to:

annihilation: heavy, too low damage and res drain in many cases, bad range (hammer and last words keep it out of range)

desolation: too low damage, bad heat generation, bad range (grim cobra)

heat bomb: not very played

dissolvers: not rlly a weapon

plus the lack of high damage charges, and of elec res mean that energy players hit 400 with each shot, killing an opponent within 3 turns once they are broken

I literally pulled an MPV from r3 box, and from the other r3 box I opened, I puleld plat fortress, so its holy sry whiteout

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Just now, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

The intention of this topic is very good, I adhere to 100 x 100.

However, this weapon was nerfed for a very petty reason that the f2p player didn´t deserve to have a VIP weapon. Mohadib thought it was too good to be an epic weapon.

I wish I had some evidence that the current administration is trying to help the f2p player, but so far I have not.

Before the nerf it has much better heat generation and slightly better damage for 81 heat cost. This buff is a massive buff to deso, it wouldn't be the same as pre nerfed deso, it would be a lot better than it.

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4 minutes ago, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

However, this weapon was nerfed for a very petty reason that the f2p player didn´t deserve to have a VIP weapon. Mohadib thought it was too good to be an epic weapon.

It was not a random phrase. Mohadib himself expressed it in the reasons he had for nerfing this weapon.

Today there are a lot of heat mech that carry weapons that need energy, but don´t charge energy modules. I mean, troll heat mechs. But it's the only way to deal with phys (at least on skull ranks).

Free energy heat is having a lot of trouble reaching rank 1. If Desolation were improved, free energy heat could face phys with a better chance. But I don't know if that would suit the "business".

firma.jpg.5ad7ed7596a81f94ed0e4ad194f78bfb.jpg

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I believe my original post to be an overbuff, an increase in 10 percent to the damage should be sufficient to make desolation useful for the F2P and in lower ranks, and weaker than the L-Ms in higher ranks.

I literally pulled an MPV from r3 box, and from the other r3 box I opened, I puleld plat fortress, so its holy sry whiteout

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3 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

And yet I'm being reported as spamming.

Forgive my skepticism, but I don't believe you.

No worries, the admins will figure out who is abusing the report button eventually.

If it's about which buff to prioritize, then desolation is at the bottom of the list, if it's even on the list (which I say it's not).

Not like it's completely logical to say this, but if it's about which takes priority, I would say the entire energy element is first priority.

But then again, there's a top 10 player that's dual valiant sniper.  Also, some people have disagreed with energy needing a buff, saying some people simply don't know how to play it.

I have to agree with them, that energy isn't totally broken, seeing CleverName fight people in the arena (his YouTube channel) who are dual malice beam.

Anyways, so yeah, I'll summarize just so people know that I'm not "spamming:"

1) I don't think desolation needs a buff.

2) If it's about what gets buffed first, probably the entire energy element.

3) Energy is still viable in top ranks, watching CleverName's channel, and seeing people run Dual Valiant.

How about this?  Let's use math.  You tell me what physical weapon desolation should be more or less equal to, and I'll run calculations to see how much the heat output and/or damage output needs to be in order for them to be more or less equal.  What do you say?  You decide.

There is no range 4-8 energy free physical weapon. If you buff energy, lower ranks will be unbalanced in favour of heat and energy, so I propose buffing the only f2p energy free heat weapon to counter that, by a 10 percent damage increase. That is all. I am not being reported I believe, so I think its just you

I literally pulled an MPV from r3 box, and from the other r3 box I opened, I puleld plat fortress, so its holy sry whiteout

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LOL guys !!!
@Lord Gorgon in a manner of good willing I would shut down this topic that started from a  ''nonsence'' forgive me for my word buff deso topic and get down into a star wars battle ! 
Please spare the community of this specific topic 😮 
 

Edited by TALΩS (see edit history)

" Socializing with people alters a person's character... especially when one does not have a character. "

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4 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

Being balanced doesn't mean overbuffing an item that doesn't really need a buff to become broken and be as good as premium items. That's not balance. And before long, supreme cannon and abomination will probably get requested for a buff as well because they both do similar damage to desolation. Just no.

Premium items are supposed to be better than regular items. Burning shower is SUPPOSED to be better than desolation.

Unless I see multiple players using Desolation in top tanks and succeeding, your argument is invalid to me. It’s been unusable at R1 for quite some time. If we are being objective, it’s useless to me, even though I have 2 Divine Desolation. Burning shower paired with Energy Free armor plays right into mid range phys and energy builds, along with hugging boilers. It’s no longer OP either. To glean this type of insight, one need look no farther than top 10. That’s the easiest litmus test. 

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17 hours ago, Mechzilla said:

Unless I see multiple players using Desolation in top tanks and succeeding, your argument is invalid to me

But that logic has no end and results in a vicious circle of buffs.  Where will it end?  What next?  "I don't see people using Arnold in R1 so it needs to become a R-M weapon and it needs a buff."  That's the main problem I have with that logic: there's no end to it, and it's going to result in a lot of forum thrash because people are going to create "Buff _____" threads constantly.

Not every weapon can be the best and not every weapon will make it into rank 1.  It's simply not possible unless you pull a Neopets and start making all the weapons more or less equal, just with different looks.

And given that I played Neopets in like 2001 or something way long ago, trust me, you don't want that type of system.

It is normal for the top dogs of any competitive system to have that 1% difference that makes them better than other types.  META is the "most effective tactics available."  Thus Desolation isn't the problem and doesn't need a buff.  Not every weapon will work harmoniously with other weapons.  And besides, unless you are rank 1, you can't know if there's rank 1 battles going on with Desolation.  You can watch rank 1 player replays forever, but usually SM only shows you the top 10 players (which is not all of rank 1), so you're not seeing all the rank 1 battles.  It would be best, in fact, to ask some rank 1 people like CleverName if they've seen desolation in rank 1.  He has an "ask me anything" thread elsewhere on this forum.

Edited by SawzAll (see edit history)

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

http://www.puresimplicity.net/~oneeyedcat/misc/supermechs.html

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3 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

You can watch rank 1 player replays forever, but usually SM only shows you the top 10, so you're not seeing all the rank 1 battles.  It would be best, in fact, to ask some rank 1 people like CleverName if they've seen desolation in rank 1.

Mechzilla is only one of the best players the game currently has. I don't know how you're saying this lmao. He has the experience there. Desolation would be cool with 10% damage increase, 20% heat generation increase. Thanks

Also, the person who made this thread, Gorgon, was one of the original people who thought to use dual Desolation in high ranks. He clearly thinks it is no longer viable.

Edited by Turtle (see edit history)

I'm the real Turtle, simple as that.

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8 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Mechzilla is only one of the best players the game currently has

Ah, my apologies then, I didn't connect the dots at first.  @Mechzilla my apologies.

However, my point that not every weapon can break into rank 1, nor could the game ever sustain a system where literally every weapon could make it into rank 1 (again, old-school Neopets).  To do that would require making all weapons more or less the same, and the closer all the weapons come to being almost equal, the less appealing the game will become.  Philosophically, it's a balance.  That's why the "when everyone's super, no one will be" quote is more or less true.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

http://www.puresimplicity.net/~oneeyedcat/misc/supermechs.html

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47 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

But that logic has no end and results in a vicious circle of buffs.  Where will it end?  What next?  "I don't see people using Arnold in R1 so it needs to become a R-M weapon and it needs a buff."  That's the main problem I have with that logic: there's no end to it, and it's going to result in a lot of forum thrash because people are going to create "Buff _____" threads constantly.

Not every weapon can be the best and not every weapon will make it into rank 1.  It's simply not possible unless you pull a Neopets and start making all the weapons more or less equal, just with different looks.

And given that I played Neopets in like 2001 or something way long ago, trust me, you don't want that type of system.

It is normal for the top dogs of any competitive system to have that 1% difference that makes them better than other types.  META is the "most effective tactics available."  Thus Desolation isn't the problem and doesn't need a buff.  Not every weapon will work harmoniously with other weapons.  And besides, unless you are rank 1, you can't know if there's rank 1 battles going on with Desolation.  You can watch rank 1 player replays forever, but usually SM only shows you the top 10 players (which is not all of rank 1), so you're not seeing all the rank 1 battles.  It would be best, in fact, to ask some rank 1 people like CleverName if they've seen desolation in rank 1.  He has an "ask me anything" thread elsewhere on this forum.

I have no plans to use the Desolation unless it’s buffed because it will get me killed and that hurts my team. LG is the most accomplished Desolation/Volcano build player in the history of SM, and he can’t use it at this point. To me, that says a lot. 😂

To delve into this a bit, balance to many items is necessary for the purposes of this balance discussion. Is that not why we are here? Both element and item equilibrium are our goals as I understand them. In order to achieve these goals, many older items will need to be buffed and/or balanced, otherwise they’re simply taking up server space and are useless as players progress. As balance achievement is approached, newer, more powerful or useful items will be released and revenue is generated for Gato Games. That’s called a power creep. Does this make it easier to understand? 

On a personal level, F2P pilots were left behind by TS, and I believe that a meaningful Desolation buff will be a big step in restoring the ability of free players to compete. 

 

 

Edited by Mechzilla (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Mechzilla said:

I have no plans to use the Desolation unless it’s buffed because it will get me killed and that hurts my team. LG is the most accomplished Desolation/Volcano build player in the history of SM, and he can’t use it at this point. To me, that says a lot. 😂

To delve into this a bit, balance to many items is necessary for the purposes of this balance discussion. Is that not why we are here? Both element and item equilibrium are our goals as I understand them. In order to achieve these goals, many older items will need to be buffed and/or balanced, otherwise they’re simply taking up server space and are useless as players progress. As balance achievement is approached, newer, more powerful or useful items will be released and revenue is generated for Gato Games. That’s called a power creep. Does this make it easier to understand? 

On a personal level, F2P pilots were left behind by TS, and I believe that a meaningful Desolation buff will be a big step in restoring the ability of free players to compete. 

 

 

Power creep is bad for games, even though it brings short term rewards and is quite profitable. And with new and more powerful items being released, the old items will have be buffed again eventually, which defeats the point of creating balance in the first place. The only reason you and lord gorgon don't want to use deso is because it's not meta and quite weak in the current meta of energy free physicals, and you want it to turn into a meta weapon. Deso isn't supposed to be a meta weapon. Meta weapons have to be the best weapons, and it'll usually be premiums.

Also, if deso got buffed, I bet that someone will eventually call for a supreme cannon buff or abomination buff.

That right there, is powercreep. Deso getting a big buff will make supreme cannon more useless than before, because why would you use something that does lower damage but cost energy?

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I agree Lord Gorgon is the biggest legend on SM .
Some months ago I used to ''use his presence on arena '' as the proggress ladder for me .
I was able to beat him I was good I wasnt able to beat him I wasnt good ...
But ok ....I dont agree with buffing the deso . 

GUYS !!!! 
------------------------
Recently heat and energy mechs had a defence buff of 30-80  physical damage absorve , wich is HUGE !
This equals with a 30-80 damage buff !!! 
That means that ALL the heat and energy weapons ALREADY got buffed by 30-80 hpsdamage  towards physicals !!!!
Have you digest that ? Because I dont think you did 
What are we talking about !?
------------------------

Edited by TALΩS (see edit history)

" Socializing with people alters a person's character... especially when one does not have a character. "

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