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Frantic Brute Suggestion - Rework it to be less random, increase its energy weakness


Alexander

How do you feel about this change?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it a good change?

    • Do this change
      30
    • Tweak this change
      23
    • Do not do this change
      10
  2. 2. Is it too harsh or not harsh enough?

    • It's too harsh, the item should be better than this
      11
    • It's not harsh enough, the item would still be too good
      23
    • Its fine
      29


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This is an example topic of an item balance suggestion 🙂

 

image.png

 

Currently, it feels very random and you can feel pretty cheated on a high hit, while using it you can also get the pretty terrible low hits. This kind of puts a damper on the strategy behind this item, while it's fine for some items to have a degree of randomness, this level of random is almost slotmachine like. 

 

I would suggest:

Change minimum physical damage +100.

Change maximum physical damage -100.

Change its energy cost by +20
Change its heat cost by +20

 

A mild nerf with a rework in, keeping the item useful and unique but making it fairly more strategic and slightly increasing its weaknesses to other chassises. 

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This indeed looks like a good stats change. The 70 heat cost might be a little too much though.
It's the only 'good' physical 3-6 range non-premium weapon, so it might be a bit more fair if the heat generation is 60 for example.

Legacy Messiah | WLGang | Rejoined March 2020

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1 hour ago, Zylok said:

This indeed looks like a good stats change. The 70 heat cost might be a little too much though.
It's the only 'good' physical 3-6 range non-premium weapon, so it might be a bit more fair if the heat generation is 60 for example.

Why did you vote for a harsher nerf if you think this is too harsh o.o

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Increasing the bottom damage and top damage by the same gives the same average damage which I believe is still an issue with the frantic. Personally I feel a fair damage would be the following:

  • Buff min damage 84 -> 175 
  • Nerf top damage 779 -> 645
  • Nerf energy cost 10 -> 25

This takes the average damage from 431.5 to 410.  (For reference Spartans average damage is 388)

 

image.pngimage.png

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I am just a newbie so please forgive me if this is out of line.

By the damage stats you gave, that technically makes it an average damage of 360, just like the old version.

I think from what I've experienced and seen in the arena, and heard from the long-time players, is that the problem is more that the random rolls don't seem random.

This may be due to the human brain's tendency to see a pattern where there is none.

How are random numbers done in this game?  In the code, is it pulling from the CPU's random number generator?  Would it be possible instead to take a page from pokemon (tm) and instead substitute a very large list of numbers that are known to be truly random, such as (for example) those listed in the back of statistical and scientific research related textbooks?

I think heat cost is fine, but I can see a benefit to increasing energy cost, so that energy mechs aren't really close to an energy break only for their enemy to be able to fire frantic brute one last time for tons of damage.

I would say that maybe the solution is to make the weapon slightly heavier.  It weighs less than a malice beam, and the malice beam does 321 average damage specifically to energy drained mechs, 194 average damage to mechs that aren't drained of energy.

Like, today I had that conundrum with my energy mech: do I equip frantic lighting (50kg) or UltraBright (56kg) or Hot Flash (66 kg)?  Frantic Lightning is tempting because it's lighter, and would deliver a crushing blow to a mech that's drained.

I guess 2 shots rather than unlimited compensates for power to weight, but seriously if I see a dual frantic brute player in an arena match, I try to match up with my energy mech and pray to God I don't die.  Usually, if even one of those is mythic, I'm dead. (my energy mech is 1500 hp roughly).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.  EDIT: I would think its average damage needs to be less than Spartan, but that's my opinion.  Maybe make it the F2P Spartan, but keep the damage spread wide.  That way it's for people who like to gamble.

Is there an alternate supermechs server that's strictly for testing where we could test this out?  Stats are nice on paper, but as we all know, sometimes what's on paper doesn't match up to reality.  I would suggest that such a thing would be necessary: an undocumented, undisclosed test server given out only to the very few who are helping to test.  All accounts would have one divine of everything so that players can equip stuff to fight in arena and test things out with.

Edited by SawzAll (see edit history)

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

http://www.puresimplicity.net/~oneeyedcat/misc/supermechs.html

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You would still be able to do more than 650+ damage with arena buff at max, I think that this still too much damage and the range is still very large. I think it would be better to add 200 damage to its minimum damage, and reduce 200 damage from its max damage. That would still make it viable, turning it into a f2p spartan with 2 uses and a larger damage range, while still not being that random. I agree with the change energy and heat cost though.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I am just a newbie so please forgive me if this is out of line.

By the damage stats you gave, that technically makes it an average damage of 360, just like the old version.

I think from what I've experienced and seen in the arena, and heard from the long-time players, is that the problem is more that the random rolls don't seem random.

This may be due to the human brain's tendency to see a pattern where there is none.

How are random numbers done in this game?  In the code, is it pulling from the CPU's random number generator?  Would it be possible instead to take a page from pokemon (tm) and instead substitute a very large list of numbers that are known to be truly random, such as (for example) those listed in the back of statistical and scientific research related textbooks?

I think heat cost is fine, but I can see a benefit to increasing energy cost, so that energy mechs aren't really close to an energy break only for their enemy to be able to fire frantic brute one last time for tons of damage.

I would say that maybe the solution is to make the weapon slightly heavier.  It weighs less than a malice beam, and the malice beam does 321 average damage specifically to energy drained mechs, 194 average damage to mechs that aren't drained of energy.

Like, today I had that conundrum with my energy mech: do I equip frantic lighting (50kg) or UltraBright (56kg) or Hot Flash (66 kg)?  Frantic Lightning is tempting because it's lighter, and would deliver a crushing blow to a mech that's drained.

I guess 2 shots rather than unlimited compensates for power to weight, but seriously if I see a dual frantic brute player in an arena match, I try to match up with my energy mech and pray to God I don't die.  Usually, if even one of those is mythic, I'm dead. (my energy mech is 1500 hp roughly).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.  EDIT: I would think its average damage needs to be less than Spartan, but that's my opinion.  Maybe make it the F2P Spartan, but keep the damage spread wide.  That way it's for people who like to gamble.

Is there an alternate supermechs server that's strictly for testing where we could test this out?  Stats are nice on paper, but as we all know, sometimes what's on paper doesn't match up to reality.  I would suggest that such a thing would be necessary: an undocumented, undisclosed test server given out only to the very few who are helping to test.  All accounts would have one divine of everything so that players can equip stuff to fight in arena and test things out with.

The main reason why frantic is so controversial is because of its damage range, not weight. Increasing the weight a bit doesn't change much, and I don't think is a viable solution. And trust me, frantic rolls high almost all the time, even if the rng was changed, it would still be controversial due to its damage range. This game is supposed to be a strategy game, not a slot machine. Also, testing isn't really needed when most people here have a lot of experience in the game.

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This nerf would be useless because it would take more damage than the supposed "nerf" ... And then I FAIOLA GAMES did a rework on this weapon:
- 3 or unlimited uses
- 31 heat cost and
energy.
- 217-322 damage
- drain 20
- reach 7-10

It was the best to do ... We think the best ... We hope it can be good.

Edited by DarkColorSlapper (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, DarkColorSlapper said:

This nerf would be useless because it would take more damage than the supposed "nerf" ... And then I FAIOLA GAMES did a rework on this weapon:
- 3 or unlimited uses
- 31 heat cost and
energy.
- 217-322 damage
- drain 20
- reach 7-10

It was the best to do ... We think the best ... We hope it can be good.

You just turned it into a completely different weapon, why? And the range is weird as hell. Damage is a worse nightfall.

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I don't know if you are from the legacy SM ... But for those who are legacy, they will understand my point of view better ...

I changed completely because this weapon is luck or chance ... And with the nerf it will be the same.

And then ... As there are some short-range or medium-range mechs ... Why not a long-distance battle mech?

This would change some strategies.

Edited by DarkColorSlapper (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, DarkColorSlapper said:

I don't know if you are from the legacy SM ... But for those who are legacy, they will understand my point of view better ...

I changed completely because this weapon is luck or chance ... And with the nerf it will be the same.

And then ... As there are some short-range or medium-range mechs ... Why not a long-distance battle mech?

This would change some strategies.

We already have enough long range weapons, some that fulfill that role better. Making it a f2p two uses spartan is good enough, no need to change it into something else.

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29 minutes ago, FAIOLA GAMES said:

Range : 3-6 ; Heat cost : 31 ; Energy cost : 31 ; Damage : 217-356 ; Resistance drain : 25 ; 3 uses and 43 kg.

In my opinion, with this rework the weapon will be more balanced, a decent weapon for F2P players and new strategies will arise.

So a lighter, lower damage, higher res drain Spartan? Or for non premium comparison, it can higher res drain, weighs less, but can only do 1 damage more than a nightfall, with a lower damage floor.

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And not to forget the rework of the brother of Frantic Brute we also have the rework of Frantic Flame and for Frantic Lightning
     Frantic Flame:
                               43kg
                              Reach 3-6
                              Heating cost 62
                              Heating damage 82
                              Drain 18
                              Damage 204-245
     Frantic Lightning:
                                     43kg
                                     Reach 3-6
                                     Energy cost 62
                                     Energy damage 105
                                     Drain 18
                                     Damage 197-236
By FAIOLAAA GAMES and I ... we hope it can be a good choice.

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21 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

ing the weight a bit doesn't change much, and I don't think is a viable solution. And trust me, frantic rolls high almost all the time, even if the rng was changed, it would still be controversial due to its damage range. This game is supposed to be a strategy game, not a slot machine. Also, testing isn't really needed when most people here have a lot of experience in the game.

Thanks for helping me understand.  This was what I was trying to get at in terms of understanding how the game generates random numbers: I think that part of the code might have something to do with it.

For example, it could be an awkward (RND+1) call.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

http://www.puresimplicity.net/~oneeyedcat/misc/supermechs.html

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Hello,this is Lake from the old forum and I'm still getting used to this place as I've spent my last years on the other one,which was much simpler and faster to use.Please be patient since there's a long one incoming,but I am really trying...It's been a long year with this weapon and I'll do my outmost best to help fix it.

@Alexander You might already know,but I was always that one guy who bragged about this item the most and wished it was changed from Day 1 of its existence,since such an item has nothing to do and should have no tangency with a strategy game.I am very glad that there is developer initiative on this issue now and will do my best to objectively explain and then leave some suggestions regarding it.

ARGUMENTS!

---

First of all,the Frantic brute is an Epic-tier top weapon,capable of delivering very low,average or very high blows to the opponent.What makes it unbalanced and unfair in a way that the previous devs failed to consider is that afct that,given its damage range and the usual average damage,it tends to have a much higher percentage towards hitting much,*much* higher than average.And so,the chance to crit is always higher than the chance to miss in theory and,in most case,also in practice.

Second of all,the item is unfair in the inventory as well as it is unfair (especially) in the Arena,which is why I consider a ''damage straightening'' inefficient.The weapon is a combination between NightFall and Spartan Carnage,yet it deals more damage than both of them.If you tweak the damage,the percentages wouldn't really change and it'd still tend to crit,and thus...It will remain a weapon with the rarity of an Epic,the range and essential functionality of an L-M and damage still above them.In other words,it'll still be a budget Spartan that's actually harder hitting than the original in general.And so,the situation will be ameliorated since there won't be 800 crist anymore,yet 700/650 crits will continue to go on and thus the situation is still there.FUndamentally,nothing has changed;thorns are smaller and easier to swallow but still hurt.

If you tweak the damage properly,however,then it's not a viable solution,either.Because then it'll be the same with weapon we already have.It's just going to be a longer-range NightFall or a direct downgrade to a Spartan variant...And nobody needs item duplicates.Or else what'd the purpose of getting a NightFall be or what value would a little extra damage from a Spartan have?Almost none,so hard-fixing Frantic isn't really do-able since it'll make it ''just another copy''.

And then adding backfire or double energy costs to it would be obsolete...Because giving 100 HP against a phys mech to inflict 800 at least twice is quite the bargain.And then the energy cost is irrelevant when fighting phys or heats,so this would only offer a slight advantage to energy mechs (that will still die before they drain the enemy,since 3 crits are enough to finish any electric and 700 energy isn't so easily drained in 1 turn).

So sorry,Alexander,but it seems at least to me that the changes proposed are...Still underwhelming compared to the massive denting capability of that thing.It's one beast impossible to tame like that.

SUGGESTIONS!

---

After much though over many months of enduring this,I could only come up with two suggestions that I would dearly like you to consider and think about.

Since there is no ''middle way'' to make this balanced and still retain its purpose,I though it may as well go ''full luck mode''.

My first suggestion it to (maybe) raise the damage a little (even though it already hits 2x as hard than usual E-Ms but hey,fine,there's that) BUT! give it one use.

Like this,it's a total luck weapon.High risk-high reward (as where now there's little risk with super abusable reward) weapon.I'm thinking like 0-900 (with Arena Buffs) instead of 100-800 and the same 50kgs of weight and costs (maybe),but JUST 1 use.Because 2 uses is too much,especially when they come in 650/700+ rows,during which you just want to uninstall the game and yourself from life and cuss at how unfair and unbalanced that was.Seriously,not even Magmas or Bunkers when drained can hit that high and that constant.With that,you'd risk doing 0 damage or killing your enemy in like 1 turn if you dual-weild them (like most abusers do,anyways,so no change there).

It's either that or...removal.

Rather than taming the damage from 800 to around 700,as suggested above,and not fixing but rather just simply ameliorating the issue a little,I think it's better to delete it.Rather than live like that,still a nightmare,then it's better off gone.

And it's not even that big a deal.The users have had a long and good time to abuse it so there they go.They still gained more than they lost.And if compensation is still in order,it's just an E-M item anyways that doesn't cost much.I reckon it costs at most 1 million gold (if you buy Silver Boxes to upgrade) to fully max it.So it can be *very* easily compensated since it's pretty much just a glass cannon and there's no real loss.But one thing is to gain:balance and fairness.

Especially in lower ranks,when R15s with 800 HP go against people that chose Frantics as a first myth and maxed item.Nonetheless,in R1,when Frantics kill you before you have any chance to drain and defend yourself or when your Spartans,Magmas and Bunkers,again,are clearly outclasses by the damage.

Thank you and I hope this has been helpful.We've has enough of this weapon and I'm sad to see that those biased users will do everything they can to keep abusing it and evade a fix.

 

EDIT:

---

Wow,it seems I'm clearly not the only one that thinks that the suggested changed are not enough.

I think there needs to be further discussing on this theme and maybe more options in the poll.

Edited by L4K3
Replies Merged (see edit history)
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31 minutes ago, L4K3 said:

It's either that or...removal.

 

I would recommend that if removal is what is decided upon, that everyone be given a Spartan Carnage of the same level for their troubles, i.e. a literal mass replacement item per item in everyone's inventory.  That way dual frantic physical metas have a very equivalent meta: dual spartan.

But alas I am a newbie.  So what does everyone think?  If removal is the action, would that be fair?

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

http://www.puresimplicity.net/~oneeyedcat/misc/supermechs.html

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You suggest being compensated with a L-M item for the loss of an E-M item that everyone had one year to absolutely abuse.

Well,maybe compensation with another E-M and some gold is in order...But the trouble caused by this weapon is already compensation enough

Spoiler

due to the amount of unfair wins and thus rank and then again,thus rank rewards gained with it for no reason.

Maybe some tokens,maybe some boxes,maybe another item but should be of that same E-M tier.Or maybe even a chart in which you choose your own E-M item(s) as compensation.Like,you know,a table of all items and you tick a fixed amount of your personal choice.

Edit:

You said ''For your troubles''.But for those that took the 800 crits;what do they get for their troubles? 😃

 

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Removing items is not an option, sorry. I'm reading all reactions, but keep in mind this was just an example topic. If someone else posts a better suggestion topic for it (please read the rules on it) thats fine. 

 

But I don't agree with 

1 hour ago, L4K3 said:

The users have had a long and good time to abuse it so there they go.They still gained more than they lost

They invested time and money into the item. Reworking it to still be good in the arena and unique, but balanced and less annoying is fine. Removing it would just be wrong, you can't assure they'd have spent the same time, effort and/or money for another item either, so that doens't solve that. 

 

If we do a change you're not fully happy but is still a step in the right direction and later people want another change to it, we can simply do another change. 

Seems right now most people are okay with it, some want it slightly weaker, others slightly stronger, so looking at the polls, it looks like this change is a good step in the right direction. 

 

Once balancing team is set up, probably this change will make it into the discussion and we'll discuss it in addition to taking into account other peoples opinion. 

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I always liked the idea of single use with this weapon too.

I suppose if the rng was narrower and the cost in energy/heat/weight was added then it's on the road to being repaired.  I'm not a fan of backfire weapons but I guess there's an argument for frantic having backfire too.

I know this topic is going to see a lot of different opinions though.

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