New item request: Energy Voltage Reducer

[Kurt]

you just copypasted vandal rage stats

[SawzAll]

26 minutes ago, MatiasKurt said:

you just copypasted vandal rage stats

Yes, and I said so, because I wanted to start there.  I'm rank 9 and wanted input of higher ranked players so that I could see if the proposal was good or not.  So you're just basically repeating what I said in the first post.

But so far one of my testers said we need to raise regen damage to 90.  I'll attempt to test this later.

[Tirreggregars]

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I know they're different but I still think it could work, and I have others who agree with me.

So please stop telling me it can't work.  It can.  Tell me how to make it work.

One recommendation I got so far is to increase regen damage to 90.

As I said before, this Item will never work. For example: at r7, where I am, most ppl have around 200 or 150 regen and 400 to 500 cap. Now if that regen were to suddenly go down by 90 so to around 100 or 50, it would be too op.

At r1, people have 400 or 350 regen with 500 or 600 cap, or they have 800 cap and 250 or 300 regen. By the time you use your Ice Dagger, you r opponent uses 2 valiants, at which point he has lost 100 regen and 90 energy (which he regens) and you have lost 480 energy, with drone, you are either broken, or down to 300 energy, with little regen anyways, so even excluding regen, you will be behind a turn, and the so called yo-yo effect will make you lose. 

Energy v Energy nowadays is just whoever goes first, and has overall better en stats wins, if you go second, and you two have similar en stats, you sometimes do not get to activate drone, because energy is too time sensitive to allow you to destroy regen, and then move on to depleting energy. 

So, this weapon is overall shit unless it gets 90 regen damage, which makes it too op at lower ranks. So sorry, it sounded cool but is not possible.

My proposition, just thought of this: 47 regen damage, around 100 en damage, and 150 drain.

Sound good?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Tirreggregars (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

8 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

As I said before, this Item will never work.

Not to be a jerk, but you do not know the future.  And because your comments have been nothing but "this will never work", I can't accept anything you're saying on the topic.

I've already had two top ranked players say it could work, that it just needs its stats tweaked.

Still, whatever.  Vote accordingly.

[Tirreggregars]

5 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

Not to be a jerk, but you do not know the future.  And because your comments have been nothing but "this will never work", I can't accept anything you're saying on the topic.

I've already had two top ranked players say it could work, that it just needs its stats tweaked.

Still, whatever.  Vote accordingly.

My comments had an analysis for why I believe it will never work, instead of just saying that you can't answer, how about you defend your point?

 

Great, they said it could work, now present the tweaked stats and we can discuss if it would work at lower ranks as well.

 

I would like this item to exist, but until someone proves otherwise, I believe it impossible that this will work.

 

And yes you sound like a complete jerk, since you repeat yourself and ignore what I said, I made a claim and presented evidence, prove me wrong or shut up.

Oh and btw, you told me to tell you how to make it work, I did, it got ignored, just because you like the item doesn't mean everyone will, and quite frankly, I love this item, it is just not good, or too good, you cannot balance it. SO before making another request and correcting me, how about you do this: read carefully through my post, explain where you think I made a mistake, go over my proposition, and then you cna come back and write an appropriate response that is not : I don't like your opinion, so no.

[SawzAll]

36 minutes ago, Tirreggregars said:

And yes you sound like a complete jerk, since you repeat yourself and ignore what I said, I made a claim and presented evidence, prove me wrong or shut up.

You're the one getting bent out of shape on this, not me.  You don't know the future.  Your "proof" was not proof, it was an opinion, and it simply wasn't compelling.

And then you proceeded to say that I am the one that needs to be quiet.  If I'm the jerk, why am I not the one who is telling people to be quiet?  I've made it clear I want constructive criticism.  Ask Max on discord:  I am more than willing to accept constructive criticism.  But that's not what you gave me.

Then you proceeded to tell me to shut up.  If your goal was for me to listen to you, why are you doing things that get you blocked?

Oh well.  *Plonk*  Your rudeness doesn't even affect me.  However, I ran out of cares to give when it comes to you specifically.  If you can be civil, I can change that, but I'm ignoring you until you can/are.

Edited March 6, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Tirreggregars]

4 hours ago, SawzAll said:

You're the one getting bent out of shape on this, not me.  You don't know the future.  Your "proof" was not proof, it was an opinion, and it simply wasn't compelling.

And then you proceeded to say that I am the one that needs to be quiet.  If I'm the jerk, why am I not the one who is telling people to be quiet?  I've made it clear I want constructive criticism.  Ask Max on discord:  I am more than willing to accept constructive criticism.  But that's not what you gave me.

Then you proceeded to tell me to shut up.  If your goal was for me to listen to you, why are you doing things that get you blocked?

Oh well.  *Plonk*  Your rudeness doesn't even affect me.  However, I ran out of cares to give when it comes to you specifically.  If you can be civil, I can change that, but I'm ignoring you until you can/are.

You have been ignoring em from the beginning. You have not provided any answer to my stats, I did not tell you to shut up, I gave you a choice, you can either prove me wrong, as in prove that this item would work, or I do not believe it necessary to spam this topic with comments about how I am not a fortune teller, when I have made my point and my meaning when I say it won't work abundantly clear. Remember, until you disprove me, I can make any claim, if I back it with evidence.

Now back to the topic, let's ignore everything else: I will rephrase what I said in my other posts:

 

In my opinion, it will not work, because it is either too strong at lower ranks, and decent at top, or decent at bottom, and useless at top.

On a final note; although I may have been more direct, your entitled attitude was extremely rude and frustrating.

Even more final note: I want this item to be created very badly, I just don't want it to ruin the game

[rc]

Tirreggregars, with the following comments, it’s easy to understand how the debate between you and SawzAll fell apart:

On 3/5/2021 at 1:39 PM, SawzAll said:

I know they're different but I still think it could work, and I have others who agree with me.

So please stop telling me it can't work.  It can.  Tell me how to make it work.

One recommendation I got so far is to increase regen damage to 90.

18 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

So, this weapon is overall shit unless it gets 90 regen damage, which makes it too op at lower ranks. So sorry, it sounded cool but is not possible.

My proposition, just thought of this: 47 regen damage, around 100 en damage, and 150 drain.

Sound good?

10 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Not to be a jerk, but you do not know the future.  And because your comments have been nothing but "this will never work", I can't accept anything you're saying on the topic.

I've already had two top ranked players say it could work, that it just needs its stats tweaked.

Still, whatever.  Vote accordingly.

10 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

My comments had an analysis for why I believe it will never work, instead of just saying that you can't answer, how about you defend your point?

 

Great, they said it could work, now present the tweaked stats and we can discuss if it would work at lower ranks as well.

With SawzAll’s last comments, he completely shut you out. This is the comment I’m referring to:

10 hours ago, SawzAll said:

And because your comments have been nothing but "this will never work", I can't accept anything you're saying on the topic.

I feel that’s typical for SawzAll when he gets in a heated debate. That’s why I told him before don’t do a debate if you can’t handle it.

In regards to this topic, I don’t get why people have the urge for every element (physical, heat, or energy) to have the same/counterpart items. Sometimes, there needs to be unique items, so that makes each element unique. There needs to be some diversity, not homogeneity.

I'd think making all elements have the same/counterpart items would make the game less interesting.

Good God! Such a learning curve to use this forum! I finally figured out how to space the quotes, and use the multi-quote function!

It’s not apparent, had to mess around with it to figure it out.

Edited March 7, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

Warning: My apologies for the text wall... I sort of got too carried away with the post once I started writing it.

 

I was mostly just reading this topic as things were being discussed and I'm honestly starting to wonder why we need to have a new energy weapon that's like a Valiant Sniper without the massive drain and 2 uses.

Sure, the new weapon could bring more diversity and a chance to shift the META a bit... But when it comes to fixing things, an energy Vandal Rage wouldn't necessarily work as intended due to the "hit or miss" nature of the situation. On one hand, an energy Vandal Rage would help energy weapons chop down energy-reliant builds that normally hunt and destroy energy builds rather easily.

... But on the other hand, the weapon could become too good and cause an imbalance where energy-reliant builds that aren't energy in element end up getting cut entirely due to being unable to compete against this new weapon and its 90 regen damage since the majority of energy-reliant builds in the high ranks have 500 energy cap and mostly around 250 to 300 regen.

Most energy builds in the high ranks can do around 175-300 energy drain per turn, so if this new weapon were to be utilized on an energy-reliant build, they would succumb to the high drain as their regen gets knocked down to 210 (from 300) because of the single 90 regen damage shot... But that's just one weapon and not dual wielded as seen with Vandal Rages on cooling hunter builds.

So wouldn't that just kill the whole point of using energy-reliant weapons in the high ranks entirely?

If using energy-reliant weapons would mean death due to the new weapon, that would mean an increase in energy-free builds as people would try to combat the energy dominance problem with something that doesn't use energy in order to compete, which kills diversity in the high ranks by a massive degree because weapons like Spartan Carnage and Hybrid Heat Cannon would become obsolete and energy-free weapons would become the only usable weapons that fare a chance against energy builds with the new weapon.

 

... But that's just my two cents. Feel free to share your opinions on the matter or correct me if I got anything wrong.

Extra Note: If Ice Daggers were dual wielded, that's 180 regen damage in the matter of 1 turn, which is legitimately half the regen of an energy build since high rank energy builds usually have 360 or so regen... That's pretty terrifying to think of since Ice Dagger would give people too much of an incentive to run regen hunters in the same way as they would with cooling hunters...

... But at least Anguish finally gets to have a solid use for once.

[Tirreggregars]

6 hours ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

Warning: My apologies for the text wall... I sort of got too carried away with the post once I started writing it.

 

I was mostly just reading this topic as things were being discussed and I'm honestly starting to wonder why we need to have a new energy weapon that's like a Valiant Sniper without the massive drain and 2 uses.

Sure, the new weapon could bring more diversity and a chance to shift the META a bit... But when it comes to fixing things, an energy Vandal Rage wouldn't necessarily work as intended due to the "hit or miss" nature of the situation. On one hand, an energy Vandal Rage would help energy weapons chop down energy-reliant builds that normally hunt and destroy energy builds rather easily.

... But on the other hand, the weapon could become too good and cause an imbalance where energy-reliant builds that aren't energy in element end up getting cut entirely due to being unable to compete against this new weapon and its 90 regen damage since the majority of energy-reliant builds in the high ranks have 500 energy cap and mostly around 250 to 300 regen.

Most energy builds in the high ranks can do around 175-300 energy drain per turn, so if this new weapon were to be utilized on an energy-reliant build, they would succumb to the high drain as their regen gets knocked down to 210 (from 300) because of the single 90 regen damage shot... But that's just one weapon and not dual wielded as seen with Vandal Rages on cooling hunter builds.

So wouldn't that just kill the whole point of using energy-reliant weapons in the high ranks entirely?

If using energy-reliant weapons would mean death due to the new weapon, that would mean an increase in energy-free builds as people would try to combat the energy dominance problem with something that doesn't use energy in order to compete, which kills diversity in the high ranks by a massive degree because weapons like Spartan Carnage and Hybrid Heat Cannon would become obsolete and energy-free weapons would become the only usable weapons that fare a chance against energy builds with the new weapon.

 

... But that's just my two cents. Feel free to share your opinions on the matter or correct me if I got anything wrong.

Extra Note: If Ice Daggers were dual wielded, that's 180 regen damage in the matter of 1 turn, which is legitimately half the regen of an energy build since high rank energy builds usually have 360 or so regen... That's pretty terrifying to think of since Ice Dagger would give people too much of an incentive to run regen hunters in the same way as they would with cooling hunters...

... But at least Anguish finally gets to have a solid use for once.

In general it is either too op or too weak. If you make 90, its still weak to top rank energy but viable against other elements (mainly phys cuz eng free heat couldn't care less). If you make it 50, it is insignificant at top ranks and too strong at lower. 

7 hours ago, rc said:

Tirreggregars, with the following comments, it’s easy to understand how the debate between you and SawzAll fell apart:

With SawzAll’s last comments, he completely shut you out. This is the comment I’m referring to:

I feel that’s typical for SawzAll when he gets in a heated debate. That’s why I told him before don’t do a debate if you can’t handle it.

In regards to this topic, I don’t get why people have the urge for every element (physical, heat, or energy) to have the same/counterpart items. Sometimes, there needs to be unique items, so that makes each element unique. There needs to be some diversity, not homogeneity.

I'd think making all elements have the same/counterpart items would make the game less interesting.

Good God! Such a learning curve to use this forum! I finally figured out how to space the quotes, and use the multi-quote function!

It’s not apparent, had to mess around with it to figure it out.

Thanks, it is highly frustrating ngl!

[LittleFox]

it is frustrating seeing people being frustrated

[Tirreggregars]

1 minute ago, LittleFox said:

Are you more frustrated knowing i am frustrated because you are frustrated?

i dont mind

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

8 hours ago, LittleFox said:

Are you more frustrated knowing i am frustrated because you are frustrated?

Yes, I am frustrated and now I am more frustrated that I have the frustrating knowledge that you're frustrated due to the frustrating events that have occurred to make me frustrated in these frustrating times in SuperFrustrations. 

... Nah, I'm really not but hey, I managed to get a joke in.

Edited March 7, 2021 by W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

All, understand that this one weapon, even if approved, will NOT fix energy.  That's not my point.  It could possibly help, but it will take a lot more than this weapon to fix energy. 

Also, please stop with the off-topic banter so that this thread can remain mostly clear for evaluation purposes.  I'd rather, if Alex HAPPENS to read this, he not have to dig through spam.

[SawzAll]

Additional info: after talking to someone on discord, they suggested that having 80 regen damage and then Anguish being buffed to 15 regen damage (from 10) might make energy regen damage a viable build.

[Tirreggregars]

14 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Additional info: after talking to someone on discord, they suggested that having 80 regen damage and then Anguish being buffed to 15 regen damage (from 10) might make energy regen damage a viable build.

Again, 80 is too much for lower ranks!

[Turtle]

To be put simply: Make it viable for top ranks makes it unfair for lower ranks, and making it viable for low ranks makes it useless to high ranks.

Item would have to be so perfectly balanced for both and even then I think it fails at top ranks.

[The_Real_Ramsay49]

Might as well make it the same as VR, otherwise it would have to look different.  Especially the regen dmg.  Double "ice Dagger" would absolutely destroy literally anyone, worse than a boiler mech

[Avrora]

Energy no need such thing. Energy and heat works in different ways, if heat can waste a turn for make enemy more  vurneble, energy have each turn on count, because energy break isnt end of life, isntead of shutdown. Battles to short for make any advantage from energy regen break, because or you just die in moment  when you finally achieve energy break or just kill enemy before. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by JustAndromedaInshape (see edit history)

[Tirreggregars]

16 minutes ago, JustAndromedaInshape said:

Energy no need such thing. Energy and heat works in different ways, if heat can waste a turn for make enemy more  vurneble, energy have each turn on count, because energy break isnt end of life, isntead of shutdown. Battles to short for make any advantage from energy regen break, because or you just die in moment  when you finally achieve energy break or just kill enemy before. 

There Sawz, now a top ranker tells you what I've been saying this whole time thank u andromeda.

[firewater789]

I’m a boiler user they are fun to use but this item will not work. Heat vandal works because the heat can go over the cap well energy you can’t. The only way this can work is the combined mods getting nerfed or this weapons having really good stats

[WarrMachine]

Just a heads up Sawz, since it seems like you're pretty confident in the effects of regeneration damage. Rightfully so, it can be a useful tool for energy mechs, but I just wanted to point how you've gone a complete 180 since your EMP buff thread.

On that thread, you argued that my buff suggestion would be a nerf. I hope now you realize that it would actually be a pretty big buff, as 75 regeneration damage is pretty high and will service energy mechs quite well in arena. In the same vain, I believe the weapon you're suggesting here would be fairly weak without at least double it's current regeneration damage. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by WarrMachine (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

17 hours ago, JustAndromedaInshape said:

Energy no need such thing. Energy and heat works in different ways, if heat can waste a turn for make enemy more  vurneble, energy have each turn on count, because energy break isnt end of life, isntead of shutdown. Battles to short for make any advantage from energy regen break, because or you just die in moment  when you finally achieve energy break or just kill enemy before. 

I disagree: if the stats are high enough, without making it overpowered, it could work.  But because enemies get free energy at the end of every turn (regen) it might need to be slightly higher than VR.

11 hours ago, firewater789 said:

I’m a boiler user they are fun to use but this item will not work. Heat vandal works because the heat can go over the cap well energy you can’t. The only way this can work is the combined mods getting nerfed or this weapons having really good stats

I don't think anyone is going to be willing to nerf all the combined mods.  So, I think it would be perceived better if it was a buff to items to compensate for combined mods rather than a nerf.

10 hours ago, WarrMachine said:

Just a heads up Sawz, since it seems like you're pretty confident in the effects of regeneration damage. Rightfully so, it can be a useful tool for energy mechs, but I just wanted to point how you've gone a complete 180 since your EMP buff thread.

On that thread, you argued that my buff suggestion would be a nerf. I hope now you realize that it would actually be a pretty big buff, as 75 regeneration damage is pretty high and will service energy mechs quite well in arena. In the same vain, I believe the weapon you're suggesting here would be fairly weak without at least double it's current regeneration damage. 

Maybe.  Someone pointed that out yesterday, that there's really not any regen killer stuff in Energy to go with it.  So maybe an EMP adjustment to make it kill regen would work in combination with an energy VR.  Then Anguish might need to be buffed slightly to go with it (in terms of regen stats).  I just don't think that reducing the immediate energy damage of EMP would be worth it, so my point being maybe reduce the total energy damage of EMP less than your proposal and then add a little bit of regen.

[Tirreggregars]

10 hours ago, WarrMachine said:

Just a heads up Sawz, since it seems like you're pretty confident in the effects of regeneration damage. Rightfully so, it can be a useful tool for energy mechs, but I just wanted to point how you've gone a complete 180 since your EMP buff thread.

On that thread, you argued that my buff suggestion would be a nerf. I hope now you realize that it would actually be a pretty big buff, as 75 regeneration damage is pretty high and will service energy mechs quite well in arena. In the same vain, I believe the weapon you're suggesting here would be fairly weak without at least double it's current regeneration damage. 

Yes, you make a good point, however, you have to consider that for lower rankers, 80 or 90 regen damage is too much.

[Turtle]

This is a losing battle imo