Nerf Physical

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

4 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

I don't know where you got the idea that I was calling to rework the whole physical element.

You're the one that countered my argument talking about the physical element as a whole buddy.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

1 minute ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

You're the one that countered my argumentment talking about the physical element as a whole buddy.

Yeah, only why energy free physical mechs are so broken, and why energy mechs are dead in the current meta. I have no idea where I was calling for a complete rework of physical that you said.

A rework for physical means to to change things completely, all I'm asking for is a nerf to SOME specified physical items, the rock polisher, damaged armor annihilator and superb charge.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Shoultz262 (see edit history)

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

If you mentioned anything in this topic before you replied to me I didn't read it. I only read what you said to me since I got a notification that you quoted me.  

[Shoultz262]

Just now, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

If you mentioned anything in this topic before you replied to me I didn't read it. I only read what you said to me since I got a notification that you quoted me.  

Bruh, all of this could have been avoided if you actually read what I stated.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

I just came here to give my opinion. It's not like I wanted to have this whole thing anyways. 

[CDR_Xavier]

4 hours ago, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

most heat builds don't overheat anyone

that's a interesting conclusion. Maybe perhaps because you can't do anything when they had 250+ cooling and 400+ heat cap

4 hours ago, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

Reduce the damage of the new Charge. Those charges do 400 damage ...!

These L-Ms should simply not exist.

3 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

dual modules

I don't think dual modules are OP for what they do.

Combined engine unit is broken. It should not exist

QUAD CORE BOOSTER * (40) 97 Energy 46 Regen 89 Heat 46 Cool (Divined QCB - 104/49, 94/49)

This can exist, but right now it is 20% lighter while offering 10% more than the engines. It should be nerfed.

_______________________________

http://community.tacticsoft.net/t/maxed-mythicals-listing/6499

I can't find the damaged armor annihilator. It's not on there

45 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

especially for energy mechs when people have more than 700+ cap and usually above 300+ regen, maybe more than 350+ with the new dual modules

One way for the energy to beat a phys is to sacrifice on eng stats, but as I said, but this then quickly allow them to drain themselves so it won't be viable

UNLESS one is willing to put together multiple (at least two) energy builds with one specialize in countering phys and heat and one used to fend off other energies, but that's unviable too

________________________________

Interesting. Sweetie used to cost energy

It's a range 3 - 6 right?

They could make it a range 3 - 6 nightfall after they buff the damage. Nobody really uses that. (poor stats)

Edited December 23, 2020 by CDR_Xavier (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

Go to workshop unlimited if you want to find the stats for damaged armor annihilator. The only dual modules that aren't broken is the epic one, combined storage unit. If sweetie cost energy, it would be a poorer spartan carnage. Even when it doesn't cost energy, it's still a bit underpowered, so it needs a small buff.

[Shoultz262]

2 hours ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

I never said the backfire balanced it. I literally was talking about the fact that physical resistance drainers are balanced because they are premium. I can also show you screenshots of multiple rank 3 and higher energy mechs in the arena right now.

I can continue if you want me to. 

 

It also seems like you're saying that it's only energy mechs that are getting screwed over in this game. And if that's so true (Even though i've just found multiple sources to comprehend that) maybe we should just buff energy instead of screwing  the whole physical element that has the main purpose of doing more damage and having more health than any other element. 

Energy mechs are perfectly fine at a regular level, but at a competitive level like the top 10, not really.

If you read what CleverName said, you would understand.

And I play with a energy mech that can reach rank 3. That seems pretty obvious to me, so I don't get what you're trying to prove here.

[Tirreggregars]

15 hours ago, Fruit Money said:

and wouldnt increasing plat plate health make phys mechs better?

Yes, but if you increase the damage of non-phys weapons, the only element affected by the increase in Hp would be phys, so to say, it would have the same effect as reducing the damage of phys weapons.

I think it is important to notice that the meta has evolved, and with the new modules, you can have 250 regen on an energy free mech with 4k hp and 97 electric resistance. This means that energy mechs have very little chance of beating energy free phys mechs. Cooling destroyer mechs have become a viable option again, due to the 4k hp builds having rather poor cooling. However the fact remains that the top 10 all, or almost all play at least 2 phys in their line up, if not 3. This is not balanced. Also an item being premium does not signify that it should be a necessity to reach top positions. Right now, in the clevername's lineup there is not a single non-premium item. This makes the F2P experience rather abysmal. Also @Liam.M.Lucas_2020 tell me how to counter the current 4k hp phys, using a mech that will also work against a energy and heat. Maybe a cap destroyer, but murmur, and vandal rage deal too little damage, and the hammer and red rain require energy, so if the ohys player cools down properly, his dorne alone should be able to deal enough to get you to 1.3 k hp, which is then low enough to be killed in one turn.

@L4K3

To clarify, I was attempting to provide some, in my opinion, viable and functional solutions to the current disparity in the elements. It is not limited to the frantic brute, which needs in my opinion to double its costs. I provided my opinion on how to balance the meta, and put them up for debate. I hope this topic may help the admins in solving the issue. 

 

On a side note, this effect is clearly visible at lower ranks too, I am a rank 7, and I now started building a physical build because my energy and heat builds are too weak to progress any further than they already have. I will use this experience as an experiment to see how far I can get with my phys build, without mything any modules.

[SawzAll]

15 hours ago, CleverName said:

Plenty of energy in Rank 5+. However, none in top 5 (if that's what you meant). When people say energy is weak, it's really only at very competitive levels. At any non-competitive level, energy is fine (imo). The main reasons energy isn't competitive are:

1) Lack of raw damage (vs. peers)
2) New modules have made energy cap + regen easy to get
3) High hp builds can get away with using no drone to still win fights as most energy builds are 3k hp or less

Thanks.

Yeah that's basically what I meant: top 10 players (see arena > league).  In my opinion, until you regularly see energy and heat in the top 10 players, even if the top 5 of them are physical builds, it's not balanced.  If it is impossible to make it into the top 10 players if your primary mech is energy or heat, the game is not balanced.

It's not that I am saying this is a deal breaker.  Even if nothing changes, I will build up my physical mech (it's next on the list) and use it in the arena.

One can see this even in Workshop Unlimited: try a dual valiant sniper energy meta against your own physical meta or any of the physical meta.  It's freaking difficult, if not already impossible, to overpower anyone with an energy mech.  My WU has basically one of all of the meta and then my 3 builds (i.e. my goals) and dual VS usually loses by about 500 hp.

And that's using legs on all of them.  If I put The Claw on some of the physical metas in my WU and try dual VS against them, the difference in hit points is even bigger.

Balancing something as complex as a video game, even if it's SuperMechs (and not Team Fortress 2 or something bigger) is not easy.  So I'm being patient.

Thanks CleverName.

[A Happy F4ce]

That poll is a total clusterfuck, but, yes. Physical needs to be nerfed.

I used to play phys, but now I'd feel cheap using it.

so many just scootin aboot on their wee claws clicking away on their frantic brutes, or jumping around with 4k+ hp and drones that hit like spartan carnages.

#NewReloadWhen #TooBrokenToFix

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

3 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

Also @Liam.M.Lucas_2020 tell me how to counter the current 4k hp phys, using a mech that will also work against a energy and heat. Maybe a cap destroyer, but murmur, and vandal rage deal too little damage, and the hammer and red rain require energy, so if the ohys player cools down properly, his dorne alone should be able to deal enough to get you to 1.3 k hp, which is then low enough to be killed in one turn.

 

You can make these mechs too you know. If you can't beat them, then you are simply really high up in your average ranking. Mechs get harder as you go up, and i've only seen 2 people in the top ten that have those mechs so it means that some people are able to beat these guys. 

Ivar has lost before and it has the turns to be a legitimate fight so it's possible

10 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

Energy mechs are perfectly fine at a regular level, but at a competitive level like the top 10, not really.

If you read what CleverName said, you would understand.

And I play with a energy mech that can reach rank 3. That seems pretty obvious to me, so I don't get what you're trying to prove here.

That wasn't "regular level," that mech I showed was 21st place. 

 

Here's mechzilla he's in fourth

 

Jiyoon of course, which is in 8th:

 

Again, I can continue. 

 

Energy mechs are more powerful than people think. And I believe that the real reason there are less energy mechs than physical and heat is because they take more work and strategy. Don't know what I mean? Well, with heat you can make a completely energy free mech so why worry about trying to make a whole energy mech where you have to worry about energy health AND heat. You could argue that physical mechs have to do this too but they do way more damage than most energy mechs so they can usually kill most energy mechs before they get drained. 

 

And if you still think that energy mechs are soooo bad then make a topic asking to buff them.

[Shoultz262]

13 minutes ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

You can make these mechs too you know. If you can't beat them, then you are simply really high up in your average ranking. Mechs get harder as you go up, and i've only seen 2 people in the top ten that have those mechs so it means that some people are able to beat these guys. 

Ivar has lost before and it has the turns to be a legitimate fight so it's possible

That wasn't "regular level," that mech I showed was 21st place. 

 

Here's mechzilla he's in fourth

 

Jiyoon of course, which is in 8th:

 

Again, I can continue. 

 

Energy mechs are more powerful than people think. And I believe that the real reason there are less energy mechs than physical and heat is because they take more work and strategy. Don't know what I mean? Well, with heat you can make a completely energy free mech so why worry about trying to make a whole energy mech where you have to worry about energy health AND heat. You could argue that physical mechs have to do this too but they do way more damage than most energy mechs so they can usually kill most energy mechs before they get drained. 

 

And if you still think that energy mechs are soooo bad then make a topic asking to buff them.

End of season, rankings don't really matter until then.

I don't want a buff to energy anyway, I want a nerf to phys, specifically only SOME ITEMS that I already mentioned.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

Well I can't wait to post even more on friday for ya.

[SawzAll]

27 minutes ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

Here's mechzilla he's in fourth

 

Yeah, I looked at this a week or two ago and there were no energy mechs in top 10.  Now Mechzilla is in top ten so I must admit I was wrong: there are energy mech players in the top 10.  But granted, that's only recently.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

23 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

But granted, that's only recently.

That is true.

 

Edit: Also as just a fun observation. 

Here's me against a full team of electric mechs: 469DE

Here's me against a full team of physical mechs: 46AE2

Edited December 23, 2020 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[L4K3]

10 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

To clarify, I was attempting to provide some, in my opinion, viable and functional solutions to the current disparity in the elements. It is not limited to the frantic brute, which needs in my opinion to double its costs. I provided my opinion on how to balance the meta, and put them up for debate. I hope this topic may help the admins in solving the issue. 

I understand,brother;of course!

It's just that the way you exposed those ideas...Yeah,it was pretty messy and made it impossible to understand properly,leading to an unsure vote or even denial.

[Androphonia]

On 12/22/2020 at 1:56 PM, Tirreggregars said:

Physical is broken, unfair, and ruins the game for. non-phys users.

I propose 3 possible solutions: 

Either a complete re-evaluation of physical weapons, including major changes in:

Damaged Armour Annihilator, I propose increasing weight by 4-6kg and backfire by 50

Distance Shredder, I propose an increase in heat cost by 30, and/or a decrease in damage by 10-20%

Rock Polisher, I propose a damage reduction by 10% and an increase in heat generation by 15

Tonto, Solar Torch, Guardian and Protector, I propose an increase on all drones to 25 heat and 25 energy cost as well as a decrease in damage by 5-10%

 

Solution 2:

An increase in the damage of non-phys weapons by 5-10 percent, paired with a possible increase in the HP of Platinum Platings

 

Solution 3:

A nerfing of the modules, especially the dual modules. I propose a nerfing of the dual modules by 10%, and of the single modules by 5%

I'm pretty sure you're just giving the nerf things for weapons that you hate, if it really mattered then why nerf all the other phys weapons, like anni and nightfall.

 

Also why would you want to nerf modules, I can agree with nerfing dual mods but not single mods.

 

Finally your statement "being phys is like being cancerous" is essentially saying that if you're not extremely biased like I am I'm telling you right now that you should be, its not like energy can now drain 1000 in 1 turn

 

this is my personal opinion, you don't have to listen to me if you don't want to.

[Tirreggregars]

19 hours ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

Edit: Also as just a fun observation. 

Here's me against a full team of electric mechs: 469DE

Here's me against a full team of physical mechs: 46AE2

Would be relevant if you were playing meta phys, instead of high en cap low regen phys with limited movement, against a dual emp build.

10 hours ago, ChooseGeno said:

I'm pretty sure you're just giving the nerf things for weapons that you hate, if it really mattered then why nerf all the other phys weapons, like anni and nightfall.

 

False, at my rank there are almost no distance shredders, dual modules, damaged armour annihilators and the such. Nightrfall is a very balanced weapon, which is unused and from a very old meta. annihilation is also relatively balanced by the high weight, and rock polishers are generally stronger and more used. Maybe mercy could be nerfed, but it weighs 84 kg so it is relatively balanced compared to the other aforementioned weapons.

 

nerfing the single modules would buff heat and energy, giving them the push they need to be relevant again.

19 hours ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

23 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

 

You can make these mechs too you know. If you can't beat them, then you are simply really high up in your average ranking. Mechs get harder as you go up, and i've only seen 2 people in the top ten that have those mechs so it means that some people are able to beat these guys. 

Ivar has lost before and it has the turns to be a legitimate fight so it's possible

So you're telling me its balanced because @CleverName and Ivar have been beaten a few times, (btw have you been beaten this season @CleverName). And Jiyoon changes builds very often, and Mechzilla is currently playing 3 physical mechs. Besides Lord Gorgon and PolishAPDonation, I do not see anyone in the top ranks not playing minimum 2 phys in their lineup. Also the fact that phys is the strongest is not up for debate, again read Clevername's previous post on the topic. Also, it is obvious since Clever, with a near infinite inventory plays physical, and wins almost every season. No build is unbeatable, but a build right now, the only builds that can almost always win are physical builds, and the other elements need to become relevant again, otherwise there is no point in this game.

10 hours ago, ChooseGeno said:

Also why would you want to nerf modules, I can agree with nerfing dual mods but not single mods.

Would just like to add that I would prioritise nerfing the dual modules too, since they are way too strong, but I added the option of nerfing single modules, since the strength of physical builds has been here for a long time. For example clevername has won with 3 different phys builds, each the meta of their season.

[fig]

Guys .....counters ruins the 80% of the pleasure on this game .
Of course ''energy free physicals'' ( because they are not even en free ) are counted as counters as well.

I dont know how Gato will solve this problem but they should asap
Personally I have all the equipment to run 2x ''en free physicals'' but I am not doing it 
Because I dont enjoy quit on counters of my build and brag to win rounders .
So I lay low on APs

As I said this thing should be solved because it ruins the 80% of the pleasure on this game !
Previously there was the heat mechs advantage ...now its this ...
Finally the game should find a balance !

The reason we have such an unbalanced situation is that Physical energy free weapons multilpied .
So in order to keep the characteristics of different ellements this game 
In order to be a more balanced and not a ''nightmare on arena '' game 
The  recent energy free physical weapons should be buffed with energy cost ,
And at the same time all the physical weapons to have a damage buff of 50  or something  more minimum and maximum damage ! 

Edited December 24, 2020 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

2 hours ago, TALΩS said:

Guys .....counters ruins the 80% of the pleasure on this game .
Of course ''energy free physicals'' ( because they are not even en free ) are counted as counters as well.

I dont know how Gato will solve this problem but they should asap
Personally I have all the equipment to run 2x ''en free physicals'' but I am not doing it 
Because I dont enjoy quit on counters of my build and brag to win rounders .
So I lay low on APs

As I said this thing should be solved because it ruins the 80% of the pleasure on this game !
Previously there was the heat mechs advantage ...now its this ...
Finally the game should find a balance !

The reason we have such an unbalanced situation is that Physical energy free weapons multilpied .
So in order to keep the characteristics of different ellements this game 
In order to be a more balanced and not a ''nightmare on arena '' game 
The  recent energy free physical weapons should be buffed with energy cost ,
And at the same time all the physical weapons to have a damage buff of 50  or something  more minimum and maximum damage ! 

Nerfing energy free physical I understand, but buffing physical weapons? Have you seen how good physical mechs are right now, and you want to buff them?

[fig]

Wrong totally ...physical weapons needa a buff ...actually for my opinion

All  physicals must all have 20/30 energy and heat cost NOT more and of course non physical en free weapon. From the other hand all phys weapons should have a buff of lower damage especially ! and all to have resistance reduce !

And heats and energies to not have resistance reduce at all .OR to have one seperate resistance reduce weapon . Not all the weapons of those types to have resistance reduce .

Only like that we would be able to speak for 3 elements that each one have its own advantages .

 

So 

1) give to ALL the physical weapons 20-30 heat and energy cost  / remove ALL the energy frees .
2) buff the lower damage of some physical  weapons by 30 AT LEAST ....buff the max damage of some others by 30
3) give to ALL phys weapons resistance reduce .
4) remove from all the ehat / energy weapons resistance reduce and keep only one of each type ( the res reduce weapons only )
 thats how the arena of this game will get rid of counters !

SECOND SOLUTION! and easier 
Put a filter on arena that EVERY mech that equips evenb 1 weapon that costs energy should have at least 5x energy and / or heat modules 
Problem solved . Fair and plain .

Edited December 25, 2020 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

2 hours ago, TALΩS said:

SECOND SOLUTION! and easier 
Put a filter on arena that EVERY mech that equips evenb 1 weapon that costs energy should have at least 5x energy and / or heat modules 
Problem solved . Fair and plain .

I don't think that's a very easy second solution there.

[fig]

Do you mean that it will be complicated to put a filter on the arena ? It ill be a filter like the one on campaign ....which doesnt let you play with 1 mech on 2v2 for example ... With the basic programing knowledge is easy I guess .

[SawzAll]

4 minutes ago, TALΩS said:

Do you mean that it will be complicated to put a filter on the arena ? It ill be a filter like the one on campaign ....which doesnt let you play with 1 mech on 2v2 for example ... With the basic programing knowledge is easy I guess .

I don't think the game code needs to be changed that way.  One can just change the stats on items without introducing new code, I would guess (i.e. the database of item statistics).