Nerf Physical

[Tirreggregars]

Physical is broken, unfair, and ruins the game for. non-phys users.

I propose 3 possible solutions: 

Either a complete re-evaluation of physical weapons, including major changes in:

Damaged Armour Annihilator, I propose increasing weight by 4-6kg and backfire by 50

Distance Shredder, I propose an increase in heat cost by 30, and/or a decrease in damage by 10-20%

Rock Polisher, I propose a damage reduction by 10% and an increase in heat generation by 15

Tonto, Solar Torch, Guardian and Protector, I propose an increase on all drones to 25 heat and 25 energy cost as well as a decrease in damage by 5-10%

 

Solution 2:

An increase in the damage of non-phys weapons by 5-10 percent, paired with a possible increase in the HP of Platinum Platings

 

Solution 3:

A nerfing of the modules, especially the dual modules. I propose a nerfing of the dual modules by 10%, and of the single modules by 5%

[SawzAll]

This is a difficult thing to vote on and so I voted the best I could. but the problem I think is much more comprehensive than simple solutions that were provided here.

I think ultimately what needs to happen is there needs to be a secret SuperMechs testing app and server that only a very select few people are given access to.

 

This server would allow people to test adjustments to the entire game in the arena and in campaign.

Because the amount of work that is going to be needed to make the elements (energy, heat, physical) equal is going to be much more than just what I voted on here. if the game is going to be balanced each element should be able to achieve ranks one through five and each element should be able to beat the campaign levels.

Therefore there is going to be a very big adjustment needed to make this happen.

There is going to need to be a very concerted effort and complex evaluation of every item torso and module so that the highest meta of each element are indistinguishable at rank 1 when played by the top 10 arena players for instance.

So that heat hugger configuration that people like clever name have used needs to be equal to clever names physical jump meta and needs to be equal to the dual valiant sniper meta.

The game will be balanced when the deciding factor is the person piloting the mech, not money or equipment.

This can be done while still making SuperMechs a viable business. It's balanced when three people with $100, for instance, end up equal in the arena if they started with a brand new account.

It's equal when the shop mechs are also essentially equal.

Edited December 22, 2020 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[CDR_Xavier]

My 1.65K health energy drainer almost died to annihilation-wielding enemies in campaign.

___

It's interesting. On one side, I was whining when building my physics that annihilation is too heavy, but on the other side I was crying when my energy got torn to pieces by it.

Annihilation is a E-D and I got 3 (fused one), so I don't complain about its rarity. But it's now time to think about it.

Why is it three use, cost free?

Well, it started off as a simple rotating gun, much like the nightfall, I believe. You can see it in boomwich.

Is boomwich broken? Mostly, no.

So the result is that Annihilation is balanced. Partly because it's heavy, or maybe because it don't hit the hardest. It can hit a bit weaker (e.g. 5%), but any more and it won't be competitive. At least, when comparing to other phys weapons.

___

My physics, despite having spartan carnage, almost always get torn apart by other physics mechs, even those with LESS health.

I will whine about how nightfall hits like truck mostly because I don't have it and how it's ultra rare.

I got all those three L-Ds, a night eagle (maybe two), rolling beasts, the two plates, and I had no nightfall.

Heck, I even had a claw (that I fused). I haven't had a single nightfall in two years. I admit that I had had Tonto, but I can always sit on another one. Those are slightly more common (at least I had seen it)

Nightfall, however, is heavier AND costs more than the sweetie, so I think I do not have much to say.

__________________________

"Distance shredder is OP"

It isn't. It's heavier than reckless beam, and it generate a tremendous amount of heat (100 when mythed, 66 legendary). It shall be balanced just for the heat cost. And the fact that it has only two uses make it even more balanced.

Edited December 22, 2020 by CDR_Xavier
added content (see edit history)

[Fruit Money]

physical isnt unfair, you just gotta learn how to fight it

and have the right items like always

phys has raw damage, while heat and energy have other ways to shut down enemies

and wouldnt increasing plat plate health make phys mechs better?

[CDR_Xavier]

8 minutes ago, Fruit Money said:

wouldnt increasing plat plate health make phys mechs better?

It would. I was going to give him a good lecture on why.

___

However, I think that plates should be reconfigured as a neutral (black background) module instead of phys (yellow background) module. This have impact on how bonus from boosting is considered.

[SawzAll]

29 minutes ago, Fruit Money said:

physical isnt unfair, you just gotta learn how to fight it

 

Please pardon me for disagreeing with you then.  There are literally NO energy mech meta that rise above rank 5 (this per the pro players I have spoken with) and there are very few if any in the top 10 players' inventory.  You can also go into Workshop Unlimited and test your theory out.  Even against the computer, you end up losing to mockups of CleverName's physical mech, the heat hugger meta, and many others even if you are dual Valiant Sniper + Rail Gun + Malice Beam.  And you end up losing by 500 hp at least.  And that's with massive legs on all mechs: try it with a physical mech that has The Claw and the difference in health is likely much higher.

Sure, I'm arena rank 11.  I'm a bit new.  But I have yet (on the previous forum or this one) to meet anyone who plays an energy mech in arena rank 5 or higher.  Sure, maybe they exist.  But I have yet to find them.

I would really appreciate, however, if @CleverName and others who are actually ranks 1-5 would weigh in on this.

Edited December 22, 2020 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[CDR_Xavier]

I think the main reason in how physicals are op is because they can have good stats (hp, cooling AND regen) making them very very difficult to tackle by either energy or heat while dishing out large amount of damage that shreds any non-phys mechs.

I'm not against piling up on hp. I had defeated a 2K health (albeit, heat) mech with a 1K health. Because he had bad cooling. Be it a phys and it will be a closer call, but a 2K heat isn't considered "good". Not here I guess.

___

How come can your mech have 3.5K health AND 300/500 eng AND 250/400 heat (these mechs are everywhere)

The max amount of drain by a eng mech in a turn (two moves) is 123 (hysteria/mb) * 2 + 81, which is barely over 300. Just barely.

While he is taking turns to drain you (approx. 2 rounds), the phys mech can deal (assume dual spartan meta) 330 * 4 + 250 * 2, which is 1.82K hp (which is about 66% hp of a eng).

___

You just have impure weak builds. Myself included.

(Note that this might look like an insult, but I am not expecting any eng mech to survive any match against any heat, unless they are energy-dependent heat with horrible energy stats)

1 hour ago, SawzAll said:

dual Valiant Sniper + Rail Gun + Malice Beam

range 3 combo? But you can walk, I guess. It's not a claw build.

Dual MB + vs is my choice.

1 hour ago, SawzAll said:

Sure, I'm arena rank 11

Right behind you.

 

1 hour ago, SawzAll said:

energy mech in arena rank 5 or higher

triple (or just double) heat warning

Most eng mechs can't survive past a single (maxed) heatbomb or a decent heat-mech combo. And if they do then they will either have very bad hp that physics can just wreck them, no res, or that they will be drained by themselves.

Edited December 22, 2020 by CDR_Xavier (see edit history)

[CleverName]

1 hour ago, SawzAll said:

I would really appreciate, however, if @CleverName and others who are actually ranks 1-5 would weigh in on this.

Plenty of energy in Rank 5+. However, none in top 5 (if that's what you meant). When people say energy is weak, it's really only at very competitive levels. At any non-competitive level, energy is fine (imo). The main reasons energy isn't competitive are:

1) Lack of raw damage (vs. peers)
2) New modules have made energy cap + regen easy to get
3) High hp builds can get away with using no drone to still win fights as most energy builds are 3k hp or less

Physical by itself isn't that strong, but with the rise in new high hp high resist builds, it just comes down to sustainable damage per turn. We all know physical spits out highest damage per weight, so naturally you will see physical become dominant. In the past, weight limits didn't allow physicals to get up to 4k and still be rounded, but new L-Ms dropped weight and allowed for it. Additionally the new L-M backfire resist drainer was a big buff to physicals because now they can output really high damage over time; without those resist drains, physicals aren't that strong.

Heat used to be meta as you could overheat people reducing their playable turns, but now that doesn't matter as the hp gap is too high even if physicals waste turns. Energy used to be alright as it was harder to get energy cap/regen, but now new mods that's a cake walk. "Rounded" builds beat energy nearly 85%+ of time.

Edited December 22, 2020 by CleverName (see edit history)

[Nefertary Meriten-Mut]

I think the big problem today, at least on the high ranks is "free energy phys".

You are up against mechs that do a lot of damage and 4000 HP that you cannot beat with any build. Perhaps the closest competitor these builds have, is a kind of heat build designed to do a lot of heat damage, but which is relatively weak compared to other builds, so it isn´t very practical to use it.

These physs don't need energy and most heat builds don't overheat anyone, so that allows them to fit a lot of HP boards, something neither heat nor energy can do.

If you increase the heat damage capacity to heat builds, you screw up energy (which is pretty screwed up already). Therefore I believe that the only way to lower the HP of these free energy builds, is to add energy cost to one of their weapons.

I would add energy cost to Distance Shredder.

And please! Reduce the damage of the new Charge. Those charges do 400 damage ...!

[Shoultz262]

Only reason why physical is so strong is because of new dual modules, and the superb charge, as well as rock polisher and damaged armor annihilator helped made the current energy free physical meta. Drones are fine, and distance shredder was fine before all of these items got introduced. Just nerf the dual modules, superb charge, rock polisher and damaged armor annihilator, and it would help bring back diversity in the meta again. That's the only reason why energy free phys is meta.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

The physical element is the LEAST of the things in this game that needs to be nerfed. 

Like most people said above, you just gotta learn how to fight against it.

We already have all physical drainers as a premium item, is that not enough?

[Riot]

I guess you could say you Physically can't beat it 

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

3 minutes ago, Chef Riot said:

I guess you could say you Physically can't beat it 

[L4K3]

Look,I tried to give an honest vote,but GOD DAMN!

I didn't understand anything!I read and re-read that shit and all I realized was the fact that I had acquired a low-key start of a stroke!!!

Holy f**k!

-----

46 minutes ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

learn how to fight against it

Liam,please teach us of your forbidden ways of dodging the 800s of Frantic Brutes in a row.Maybe we didn't learn to put enough resistance to narrow it down to 700,was that it?

Do us that favor and then you shall be listened to.

Edited December 22, 2020 by L4K3
FORUM CAN'T TAKE CONSECUTIVE REPLIES;THAT PIECE OF SHIIIEEEEEAAARGHHH I HATE THIS FORUM FFS!!!! (see edit history)

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

Oh, I didn't know that the frantic brute was the only physical weapon in the whole game. 

 

This isn't another one of those 100s of  frantic rant topics.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

2 hours ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

The physical element is the LEAST of the things in this game that needs to be nerfed. 

Like most people said above, you just gotta learn how to fight against it.

We already have all physical drainers as a premium item, is that not enough?

How would you beat a rounded physical mech with dual modules as a energy or heat mech? Or a meta energy free physical unless you are a energy free physical yourself? Obviously, as a physical mech, you only need to have more health than the opponent. That's much different for heat and energy mechs, especially for energy mechs when people have more than 700+ cap and usually above 300+ regen, maybe more than 350+ with the new dual modules. Try draining that. There's a reason why you don't really see energy mechs in the top 10 anymore for that matter. Your point of physical resist drainer being premium isn't really revelant, because most people don't use armor annihilator even if it was not premium anyway because physical is supposed to be about burst damage, not doing more damage overtime like heat mechs or burst drain like energy mechs. Also, it is quit heavy. Now for damaged armor annihilator, that's different because it has better res drain and is much lighter, allowing you to put 2 of them on a mech, especially on a energy free physical mech where you basically can break their res then damage them because of their sheer health, which is very different from rounded physical.

Energy free physical can tank through almost every build because of their health. Win against energy because of health and good damage with res drainer, win against heat because of health and res, and win against rounded physical because of health. Also win even against scope builds because of health.

[Nefertary Meriten-Mut]

Are you referring to the dual heat / energy modules? Or do you mean the dual  resis / HP?

If you mean dual heat / energy modules, it's as if I said my free energy heat needs dual modules! You don't need energy!

Free energy phys only needs energy for the drone, and really, with 4000 HP and the damage it does, it can do without the drone.

If you refer to the resis / HP dual module, there I can agree that it makes a difference.

For these phys to lower their HP: or Heat, increase the ability to reheat (which would damage energy builds) or add energy cost to 1 or 2 of these free energy phys weapons.

........................

And this is nothing! If this isn´t corrected now, in a few days, when the new multi resis appears, these phys mech will reach the 4500 HP.

 

The imbalances in favor of one of the 3 kinds of builds were always a way to increase sales. But this time it has been exaggerated, they have left 10 villages.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

1 minute ago, Shoultz262 said:

How would you beat a rounded physical mech with dual modules as a energy or heat mech? Or a meta energy free physical unless you are a energy free physical yourself? Obviously, as a physical mech, you only need to have more health than the opponent. That's much different for heat and energy mechs, especially for energy mechs when people have more than 700+ cap and usually above 300+ regen, maybe more than 350+ with the new dual modules. Try draining that. There's a reason why you don't really see energy mechs in the top 10 anymore for that matter. Your point of physical resist drainer being premium isn't really revelant, because most people don't use armor annihilator even if it was not premium anyway because physical is supposed to be about burst damage, not doing more damage overtime like heat mechs or burst drain like energy mechs. Also, it is quit heavy. Now for damaged armor annihilator, that's different because it has better res drain and is much lighter, allowing you to put 2 of them on a mech, especially on a energy free physical mech where you basically can break their res then damage them because of their sheer health, which is very different from rounded physical.

First off, I was mostly referencing the backfire version of the physical resistance drain and it seems pretty damn relevant to me since it IS a thing that has helped balance the elements. It's also really hard to get a perfectly rounded physical mech like that since it takes a lot of premium items. I don't know what nerfing the whole physical category would do to solve that since those mechs would have the same heat and energy. And don't tell me that nerfing hp on all torsos would solve that because it would also lower the health of the physical mech's opponent ultimately making a health nerf completely useless.

[Shoultz262]

6 minutes ago, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

First off, I was mostly referencing the backfire version of the physical resistance drain and it seems pretty damn relevant to me since it IS a thing that has helped balance the elements. It's also really hard to get a perfectly rounded physical mech like that since it takes a lot of premium items. I don't know what nerfing the whole physical category would do to solve that since those mechs would have the same heat and energy. And don't tell me that nerfing hp on all torsos would solve that because it would also lower the health of the physical mech's opponent ultimately making a health nerf completely useless.

Damaged armor annihilator's backfire doesn't really balance it, especially on a energy free physical mech where you have like 4k hp. And yeah, I also don't agree with the solutions you said, but I think that nerfing the dual modules at least is fair, since they basically made energy mech irrelevant in the meta.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

I never said the backfire balanced it. I literally was talking about the fact that physical resistance drainers are balanced because they are premium. I can also show you screenshots of multiple rank 3 and higher energy mechs in the arena right now.

I can continue if you want me to. 

 

It also seems like you're saying that it's only energy mechs that are getting screwed over in this game. And if that's so true (Even though i've just found multiple sources to comprehend that) maybe we should just buff energy instead of screwing  the whole physical element that has the main purpose of doing more damage and having more health than any other element. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

8 minutes ago, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

Are you referring to the dual heat / energy modules? Or do you mean the dual  resis / HP?

If you mean dual heat / energy modules, it's as if I said my free energy heat needs dual modules! You don't need energy!

Free energy phys only needs energy for the drone, and really, with 4000 HP and the damage it does, it can do without the drone.

If you refer to the resis / HP dual module, there I can agree that it makes a difference.

For these phys to lower their HP: or Heat, increase the ability to reheat (which would damage energy builds) or add energy cost to 1 or 2 of these free energy phys weapons.

........................

And this is nothing! If this isn´t corrected now, in a few days, when the new multi resis appears, these phys mech will reach the 4500 HP.

 

The imbalances in favor of one of the 3 kinds of builds were always a way to increase sales. But this time it has been exaggerated, they have left 10 villages.

Wep, for rounded physical, I was talking mainly about energy/heat modules. As for energy free physical, I was talking about the new res modules since I don't think most people put energy modules on a energy free physical mech. And I agree that the new res modules can make a difference, we'll have to see about the max prot module since we don't know its stats yet, and everyone mostly uses physical and heat res only anyway. I don't think that your solutions are good, because as you said, buffing heat would hurt energy, and adding energy cost to some energy free weapon would basically ruin them, since that's their main point. I support being able to build a viable energy free physical, what I don't support is how broken it is compared to other builds. So I think that a nerfing of some physical items is good, mainly rock polisher, damaged armor annihilator, and superb charge. A nerf to dual modules would also be good, especially the energy/heat modules since they basically made energy mechs dead in top ranks, especially at a competitive level.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

How would nerfing physical help lower the energy cap from the new mods?

 

Edit: I could also show you multiple energy mechs that are rank 3 or higher if you want me to.

 

They aren't that rare.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

Just now, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

How would nerfing physical help lower the energy cap from the new mods?

That's mainly for energy free physical, and you can't tell me that superb charge is balanced. I also said only some physical items, mainly rock polisher, damaged armor annihilator and superb charge since they are one of the reasons energy free physical mechs are so broken. Dual modules are a different thing.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

I do agree that energy free physical mechs and especially the superb charge should not exist but that doesn't mean we have to rework the whole physical element. 

[Shoultz262]

Just now, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

I do agree that energy free physical mechs and especially the superb charge should not exist but that doesn't mean we have to rework the whole physical element. 

I never said to rework the whole physical element, at what point did I say that? I said a nerf mainly to those physical items only. I don't know where you got the idea that I was calling to rework the whole physical element.