Windforge rework proposal - by LG

[Lord Gorgon]

Patient of the day: the tiny electrical drone; windforge.

Main attributes of this drone are low weight and large energy drain. With today's regenerative capabilities, the drain is way to low to do the intended job properly, damage usually hits for 1. Drone is close to useless.

As per putting it in perspective with swoop, which has low damage, low weight and 46 heat generation more than the second larger heater drone (guardian), i propose the following buff to windforge:

- +61 energy drain

- +15% damage

Keep in mind that electrical type is currently (and since long time) at the bottom of the food chain.

Feel free to coment on the subject here bellow and to participate to the poll.

 

Thanks, LG 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Lord Gorgon
Oui (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

This is going to sound weird, but hear me out.

I once ran a football-bracket with the different energy drones in WU, with two identical energy mechs, just the drones being different.  Best 2 out of 3 for each.  It was a LOT of WU battles.

The top two drones ended up being Windforge and Unreliable Guardian, believe it or not.

And with those two it basically became a contest for who got the first turn.  But I considered Unreliable Guardian the winner.  Both test mechs had my 500/300 cap/regen config, so none of the drones technically amounted to enough to energy break the other mech.  So keep in mind this is energy v energy, and in energy vs non-energy you'd want a drone with more drain (Unreliable Guardian) probably.

I would be against buffing Windforge.  It fills a good niche already: it's lightweight but has the best damage to weight ratio of all the energy drones.

Swoop's buff made it twice the damage to weight ratio of other heat drones, essentially nerfing all other heat drones.  I voted no.

That's the problem with buffing one type of item: you technically nerf all the others.

Edited January 16, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

Assuming the drain is added to the item without arena buff, that'll make it 142 drain fully divined, which is 170 drain with arena buffs, that's too big of a buff imo. You could make it like 130 drain with arena buffs which is a lot more balanced which means only adding 28 drain, which is 109 drain w/o arena buffs. That's still a lot of drain. As for the damage increase, yeah, I agree that it does too little damage in today's meta.

1 minute ago, SawzAll said:

This is going to sound weird, but hear me out.

I once ran a football-bracket with the different drones in WU, with two identical energy mechs, just the drones being different.

The top two drones ended up being Windforge and Unreliable Guardian, believe it or not.

And with those two it basically became a contest for who got the first turn.

I would be against buffing Windforge.  It fills a good niche already: it's lightweight but has the best damage to weight ratio of all the energy drones.

If I got a Windforge right now, I would hold on to it.  I think it would work great in the campaigns, and maybe even in the arena.

I think the reason it does so well is due to resistance drain.

I use Unreliable Guardian right now in the arena because I have one.  But if I got a Windforge, I'd be very tempted to switch temporarily.

I say it's fine the way it is.  Swoop's buff made it twice the damage to weight ratio of other heat drones, essentially nerfing all other heat drones.  I voted no.

What? Windforge only does 5 res drain, and it's obsolete currently because even its low cost compared to drain (which is the same as other ranged and backfire drones) doesn't make up for its lack of damage.

[SawzAll]

3 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

What? Windforge only does 5 res drain, and it's obsolete currently because even its low cost compared to drain (which is the same as other ranged and backfire drones) doesn't make up for its lack of damage.

Yeah I felt that was a strange result, too, but I ran it over and over.  Mech config: typical F2P drainer of hysteria, malice, last words, stormweaver, rusty energy armor, and I think four energy engines.

PLEASE, though, run your own tests.  I'm actually interested to see what the outcome is.  (Be sure to pilot both mechs in WU and make them identical, etc, as the WU enemy mech AI isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.)

[Shoultz262]

Just now, SawzAll said:

Yeah I felt that was a strange result, too, but I ran it over and over.  Mech config: typical F2P drainer of hysteria, malice, last words, stormweaver, rusty energy armor, and I think four energy engines.

PLEASE, though, run your own tests.  I'm actually interested to see what the outcome is.  (Be sure to pilot both mechs in WU and make them identical, etc, as the WU enemy mech AI isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.)

Of course you're playing with non meta configurations. Windforge sucks in the current meta, and I don't need to go to WU and prove it since no one really uses it in top ranks. Also, if you fully understand what I said then you know why it sucks.

[Avrora]

Maybe 170 energy drains sounds crazy, but keep in mind that have no dmg at all, so even if you gonna make fast drain build with emp/upc you just gonna lack out of huge amount of dmg, also want to remind that now arena is full of +100 res guys with big energy cap and regen

[Shoultz262]

9 minutes ago, JustAndromedaInshape said:

Maybe 170 energy drains sounds crazy, but keep in mind that have no dmg at all, so even if you gonna make fast drain build with emp/upc you just gonna lack out of huge amount of dmg, also want to remind that now arena is full of +100 res guys with big energy cap and regen

Yes, but what about energy dependent builds?

I mean non premium mods fully energy dependent builds.

They're going to get wrecked.

[Avrora]

9 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

Yes, but what about energy dependent builds?

Those today run 330+ regen per turn with 700+ cap, one problem is drain them, second kill with this childish dmg and without upc dmg which after enemy energy break  is run out of uses

[Shoultz262]

9 minutes ago, JustAndromedaInshape said:

Those today run 330+ regen per turn with 700+ cap, one problem is drain them, second kill with this childish dmg and without upc dmg which after enemy energy break  is run out of uses

Yeah, I see.

If such a massive buff happens to windforge though, all the other energy drones might become obsolete because of such a massive drain and low cost, but that's what I think. Although I do support a buff for it. Idk, they could buff it first to 130 drain right now, and then buff it to 170 drain in the future if it isn't enough.

[WarrMachine]

Simply amazing how people can vote no to this when WindForge has essentially zero usage while being a premium item. 

Take a look at the last 6+ months worth of top 10 player’s builds. Historically speaking energy is by far the weakest and (consequently) underused type. Don’t understand why some people want to keep it that way but okay? 

[SawzAll]

1 hour ago, WarrMachine said:

Simply amazing how people can vote no to this when WindForge has essentially zero usage while being a premium item. 

Take a look at the last 6+ months worth of top 10 player’s builds. Historically speaking energy is by far the weakest and (consequently) underused type. Don’t understand why some people want to keep it that way but okay? 

Because to do to wind forge what they did to swoop would nerf all other energy drones.

Wind forge is already the highest energy drone in terms of damage to weight. It's just that it is lightweight so it's stats don't look good.

But this isn't, in my opinion, how you would fix energy. They broke energy when they created so many energy free weapons. THAT'S what broke energy. And over-buffing one drone isn't going to fix energy overnight.

To fix the entire energy dimension will, in my opinion, require a complete overhaul of the game, and in ways few people would like or appreciate. Simply buffing a few things won't be enough in my opinion.

I'm not talking arena experience. I'm talking big picture game philosophy and concept. As someone with thirty years of game experience in several games, especially mech games, it's the bigger picture that needs work. Like I played (and own) the original battle tech board game, and all mechwarrior titles up until mechwarrior 4.

The problem is, however, buffs are too popular.

Edited January 16, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[fig]

32 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

They broke energy when they created so many energy free weapons. THAT'S what broke energy. And over-buffing one drone isn't going to fix energy overnight.

 

True . And you know what ? At the same time they broke in general the pure builds heat/en/phys. The rounders . 
Especially pure phys ( non free en ) felt it a lottt on the last balance .
But I think the game rn is on the limits ...on the good road .
The next balance changes should be VERY VERY specific .
On the coming balance I think the team should consentrate on pure builds ( rounders ) buff !
Thats where the team should be consentrate . To boost the rounders playing style .
Because as we all saw ...semi en free ....counters etc playing styles ruins the balances !!!

And you know what ? the en free items have their roots muuch earlier ! when heats were ruling the arena  before some years . I am 80% sure that it will be very difficult /imposible to really balance the 3 elements ! 
But lets see...

Nevermind back on the subject . No this drone doesnt need a buff .
What neeeds buff I think are the modules  ( the non L+ ones ) - en/heat capacities in someway .
But I am not sure 100% about it yet .

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[WarrMachine]

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Because to do to wind forge what they did to swoop would nerf all other energy drones.

Wind forge is already the highest energy drone in terms of damage to weight. It's just that it is lightweight so it's stats don't look good.

But this isn't, in my opinion, how you would fix energy. They broke energy when they created so many energy free weapons. THAT'S what broke energy. And over-buffing one drone isn't going to fix energy overnight.

To fix the entire energy dimension will, in my opinion, require a complete overhaul of the game, and in ways few people would like or appreciate. Simply buffing a few things won't be enough in my opinion.

I'm not talking arena experience. I'm talking big picture game philosophy and concept. As someone with thirty years of game experience in several games, especially mech games, it's the bigger picture that needs work. Like I played (and own) the original battle tech board game, and all mechwarrior titles up until mechwarrior 4.

The problem is, however, buffs are too popular.

And I’m telling you, as someone with almost 7 years experience playing this game at top ranks in both legacy and reloaded, that combined modules are what killed energy. 
 

Energy free weapons existed far before energy was dead, but it was only after the release of OP, CEU, and QC that energy got absolutely shafted. This didn’t fundamentally break anything about the game, but it did make energy the weakest type since it gave everything insane regen. 
 

Please stop using weight to stat ratio as a point of comparison between items. It doesn’t accurately judge how the meta functions in this game. A better point of comparison in my opinion is usage rates across all ranks, as it provides a more realistic vector at which to compare an items viability. 
 

Buffs are not popular at all? If I’m not mistaken this is the first buff we’ve seen in at least 8 months, last one being Archimonde by a tiny insignificant amount. Suggesting buffs may be popular, but it doesn’t translate to in game change. 
 

Buff WindForge. 

[SC2A]

buff windforge but not about it damage

buff it energy drain to 120 or lower

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by nightmarefreddy (see edit history)

[rc]

SawzAll, that big picture is gone with Tacticsoft gone. With the new mods introduced by Tacticsoft, they were supposed to introduce new items to “offset the new mods”. It should have been a new era.

Now, we got Gato doing rebalancing on some power creeped items instead of ushering a new era. I suppose it’s a stopgap measure until they get a better understanding of the game’s dynamic, and have the time to develop their own big picture.

I hope they hurry up. I’d prefer Gato rebalance the game with newer items instead of power creeped items. A rebalance on power creeped items seems like a step backward instead of forward.

Regardless, it’d be interesting to see Gato’s big picture. They’ll be leading us down a different path than Tacticsoft. I just hope it’s the right path.

Edited January 17, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

Easiest way to bring balance back is to basically nerf new mods. But gato doesn't like nerfing items, so here we are.

[ITRIEDXD]

Its the basic strategy of all games. New item. Item is op, everyone buys it. they make profits. Then they nerf it. Thats why there will be an endless stream of  new items. Every game does it.

[rc]

15 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

Easiest way to bring balance back is to basically nerf new mods. But gato doesn't like nerfing items, so here we are.

Shoultz, actually, no nerf or buff is necessary if new weapons, drones, etc. have greater energy drain, heat damage, etc. These new items will offset the new mods.

If I remember correctly, 2 years back, boosters, heat engines, and energy engines used to be premium items. Now days, they’re common tier items. So with the new mods, they represent the boosters, heat/energy engines when they were premium. Thus, we’re in a new cycle, era. If I’m not mistake, Legacy was always like this with new items power creeping the old items.

Edited January 17, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[Avrora]

3 hours ago, rc said:

Shoultz, actually, no nerf or buff is necessary if new weapons, drones, etc., have greater energy drain, heat damage, etc. These new items will offset the new mods.

If I remember correctly, 2 years back, boosters, heat engines, and energy engines used to be premium items. Now days, they’re common tier items. So with the new mods, they represent the boosters, heat/energy engines when they were premium. Thus, we’re in a new cycle, era. If I’m not mistake, Legacy was always like this with new items power creeping the old items.

In reloaded engines and boosters never was l-m items. Only mono cap modules/resist/platinum plate always had this status

[SawzAll]

12 hours ago, WarrMachine said:

Please stop using weight to stat ratio as a point of comparison between items. It doesn’t accurately judge how the meta functions in this game. A better point of comparison in my opinion is usage rates across all ranks, as it provides a more realistic vector at which to compare an items viability. 

Say that all you want, but when they over-buff it, as seems to be their tendency, it will only nerf the other drones.  And it doesn't change what I said: buffing Windforge will not fix energy overnight.  Besides, damage to weight ratio isn't an invalid point: I'm using it to say Windforge is already good (just like Swoop was before it got buffed).  Now Swoop is over-buffed so it looks like, so far, what I said was correct.

Forgive my cynicism, but knowing our luck, it will do more drain than the premium drones when they over-buff it, which will only complicate the problem.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I voted no.

Edited January 17, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[rc]

5 hours ago, JustAndromedaInshape said:

In reloaded engines and boosters never was l-m items. Only mono cap modules/resist/platinum plate always had this status

Ah, JustAndromedaInshape, the fact you corrected me on that instead of what I’m thinking makes me think you forgot as well. I didn’t remember the exact details at the time of posting my comments you’re replying to. However, I do remember engines and boosters were hard to come by.

So, with the nerf on premium boxes, engines and boosters became easy to get. Correct me if I’m wrong, JustAndromedaInshape. This is the event I’m referring to:

Ring a bell?

So, in that sense, before the nerf on premium boxes, engines and boosters were premium (in the loose sense of the word) because they were hard to come by. Good thing I didn’t say they're L-M, lol.

Edited January 17, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[Avrora]

1 hour ago, rc said:

Ah, JustAndromedaInshape, the fact you corrected me on that instead of what I’m thinking makes think you forgot as well. I didn’t remember the exact details at the time of posting my comments you’re replying to. However, I do remember engines and boosters were hard to come by.

So, with the nerf on premium boxes, engines and boosters became easy to get. Correct me if I’m wrong, JustAndromedaInshape. This is the event I’m referring to:

Ring a bell?

So, in that sense, before the nerf on premium boxes, engines and boosters were premium (in the loose sense of the word) because they were hard to come by. Good thing I didn’t say they're L-M, lol.

Ah, now i understand what you talking about. First 1,5~2 years that was hard to take it because of pre buffed boxes (the thing what you mentioned) and actually not a lot of ways to earn tokens (because raid even was a thing how you remember) , also time played it's own role as well

Edited January 17, 2021 by JustAndromedaInshape (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

15 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

Easiest way to bring balance back is to basically nerf new mods.

I respectfully disagree.  You could do that tomorrow but energy-free physical would still be top META in this game.  No matter what, if there are enough weapons that are energy-free, energy can basically be ignored.

I point out that the CleverName jump mech (distance shredder + mercy) and the EFA heat hugger (dual sorrow or dual/triple magma) are still entirely energy free.  Nerfing modules wouldn't stop them.

Sorry to reply so many times, but this thought just came into my head while I was eating lunch.  The problem isn't modules, in my opinion, and I don't think nerfing the modules would fix it.  I think instead the solution is bigger than that, and that it would take time and a team of volunteer testers on a test-only SM server to figure out how to fix it, because it's a game-wide problem.  If two of the major META can ignore energy, buffing Windforge won't stop them.  Like, with all due respect, that's half the mechs in heat and physical META right now, roughly.

And coming from 20 years working on the F-117 and F-16, the digital systems in charge of firing weapons, tracking targets, and dropping weapons on target, I can tell you the reality is all weapons systems require energy.  Even bombs are dropped using a high power 28 volts through explosive squibs.

This part is my opinion: all items should cost energy, even if it's only 5 energy.  I think the few exceptions would be modules (obviously), grappling hooks (these could be spring loaded, in theory), maybe teleports (stored batteries inside them), and maybe charge engines (the ejection seats on military aircraft are self-contained).

I know that would require a touch more realism than the game currently has.  I also know that would sort of disturb my energy-free distance shredder: but I'm arguing for this because I think it will fix the problem, not because it will benefit me.  I think, with all due respect, as a general concept, those who have Windforge who are arguing that they want it buffed may not be completely objective because their proposal benefits them.  My proposal doesn't benefit me because it would nerf my distance shredder.

But I think if we're going to make energy mechs a valid thing, we would have to prevent other mechs from being able to basically totally ignore them.

My point wasn't to keep arguing against Windforge, it was to share the idea that I had.

Edited January 17, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[WarrMachine]

2 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I point out that the CleverName jump mech (distance shredder + mercy) and the EFA heat hugger (dual sorrow or dual/triple magma) are still entirely energy free.  Nerfing modules wouldn't stop them.

Sorry to reply so many times, but this thought just came into my head while I was eating lunch.  The problem isn't modules, in my opinion, and I don't think nerfing the modules would fix it.  I think instead the solution is bigger than that, and that it would take time and a team of volunteer testers on a test-only SM server to figure out how to fix it, because it's a game-wide problem.  If two of the major META can ignore energy, buffing Windforge won't stop them.  Like, with all due respect, that's half the mechs in heat and physical META right now, roughly.

No offense but your inexperience in top ranks is showing here. Energy free phys and especially EFA mechs get messed up by damage based energy mechs like triple bunker. Just because something doesn't require energy doesn't mean it's automatically leagues ahead of everything else. You have to consider for a moment the bigger picture of how all mech types interact and force each other into varying degrees of viability.

Now I'm not blaming you for not knowing this but it's something you need to be aware of, because you're saying a lot of things matter of factly that are simply just not true. Buffing WindForge would help energy mechs vs En free mechs because it directly translates into higher damage output due to energy drain carry over.

Doubling down on energy free weapons - they are not the end all be all of this game. They don't break the game, they nerf the user to energy mechs quite hard actually. Energy free weapons have been around since as long as I can remember (2014) and sure they've had their moments of high viability but they've never been completely game breaking as you so insistently imply.

9 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Besides, damage to weight ratio isn't an invalid point: I'm using it to say Windforge is already good (just like Swoop was before it got buffed).

Damage to weight ratio is more often than not incorrect. Easy counter example off the top of my head is Purifier and Lazy Falcon. Extremely high damage to weight ratios yet their usage rates are disgustingly low simply because there's almost no viable mechs that can use them.

Swoop was arguably the worst drone in the game before it got buffed. I had never seen it used before it was buffed, simply because it was outclassed by pretty mech every other heat drone by a landslide. WindForge isn't very either good right now either. Look at pretty much any top ranked energy user and you'll find that they opt for Unreliable Guardian/Protector, because they can actually lay down some damage on top of doing good energy drain. Also remember that WindForge is a premium item, it's supposed to be viable, if not great in the current meta. This is why I'm not giving up on this buff. 

[Turtle]

Energy bad buff pls

Sawzall, its a game, not everything has to require energy.

Good buff, definitely needed, but I would rather see a small nerf to the combined mods. Yes, even my beloved Overload Preventor