Backfire items and elemental considerations

[Lord Gorgon]

Hello people,

İn the following thread, İ will suggest adjustments on back fire weaponry. 

Abstract: as observed, most backfire items have/will be released in all 3 elementals. For a given item, each elemental version has its own raw damage output, its own elemental damage output, its own weight, but the backfire values are the same. İs it correct? İ believe it is not.

Arena reality: From a high rank perspective, here under the analyze İ propose for each elemental (study based on rounded builds):

• Physical: Nowadays meta articulates around very high HP (spans from 3.500 to 4.200hp), very high damage output for all weapons (~400+dmg) and very short battles.
  • İmpact of backfire on viability: low (very high HP and very short battles)
  • İmpact of backfire on efficiency: very favorable (all ranges items, energy free items, large raw damage output, low consumption (against non BF counterparts))
  • İmpact on building capability: very favorable (light weight, translates positively against weaponry ranges of action)
• Electric: Nowadays meta articulates around low to mid HP (spans from 2.500 to 3.000hp), high/continuous energy drain capability and middle length battles.
  • İmpact of backfire on viability: High (low HP and longer battles gameplay)
  • İmpact of backfire on efficiency: favorable (all ranges items, energy free items, large drain capabilities, high raw damage outputs)
  • İmpact on building capability: High (not significant advantages toward weight, translates positively against weaponry ranges of action (against non BF counterparts))
• Heat: Nowadays meta articulates around mid HP (spans from 2.900 to 3.500hp), mixture of heating and raw damage capabilities, and middle to long length battles.
  • İmpact of backfire on viability: High (medium HP and longer battles gameplay)
  • İmpact of backfire on efficiency: not favorable (all ranges items, energy free items, low heating capabilities, low raw damage output (against non BF counterparts))
  • İmpact on building capability: low (not significant advantages toward weight, does not translates positively against weaponry ranges of action)

Going through the here above analyses, we can understand that the latest BF weapon additions provided a large advantage to physical type, some slight advantages to electric type and close to no advantages to heat type.

Possible ways of balancing (leaving aside nerf on physical type backfire weapons):

• İncrease raw damage outputs of heat and electric BF weapons (with different ratios)
• İncrease elemental damage outputs of heat and electric BF weapons (with different ratios)
• Decrease weight of heat and electrical BF weapons (with different ratios)
• Decrease backfire values of heat and electrical BF weapons (with different ratios)
• A mixture of all the above

Please feel free to express your point of views in both the poll and possible posts.

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Lord Gorgon (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

Instead of buffing energy or heat items, nerf physical items instead. Especially rock polisher, since it's the main reason why energy free physical builds are meta right now. I also think that the damaged armor annihilator needs a nerf, it is massively better in every way from the regular version except backfire, and even that is compensated by the fact that energy free physicals have the most health out of all builds.

[Mechzilla]

Would it be out of the question to remove backfire completely from both energy and heat elements?  

[Pavke]

44 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

Instead of buffing energy or heat items, nerf physical items instead. Especially rock polisher, since it's the main reason why energy free physical builds are meta right now. I also think that the damaged armor annihilator needs a nerf, it is massively better in every way from the regular version except backfire, and even that is compensated by the fact that energy free physicals have the most health out of all builds.

I believe phys are OP because of the new mods and not weapons.

[Shoultz262]

41 minutes ago, Purific said:

I believe phys are OP because of the new mods and not weapons.

You can't deny that rock polisher and damaged armor annihilator plays a big part in making them op as well.

[Pavke]

1 minute ago, Shoultz262 said:

You can't deny that rock polisher and damaged armor annihilator plays a big part in making them op as well.

That's true, yeah.

[WarrMachine]

Decreasing the backfire of heat and energy items is a good idea in my opinion. 

Another possible solution is adding more arena stat bonus levels to heat and energy's respective categories. For example giving an 11th/12th bonus level to Heat/Energy Damage and Explosive/Electric Damage. These would have to be tweaked carefully, but I think it's a possible route for balancing top ranks. 

[Shoultz262]

3 hours ago, WarrMachine said:

Decreasing the backfire of heat and energy items is a good idea in my opinion. 

Another possible solution is adding more arena stat bonus levels to heat and energy's respective categories. For example giving an 11th/12th bonus level to Heat/Energy Damage and Explosive/Electric Damage. These would have to be tweaked carefully, but I think it's a possible route for balancing top ranks. 

That would just be more powercreep since most people don't have lots of spare arena coins. Plus, it'll be weird because heat and energy gets another bonus level where as physical doesn't. This might just keeps going until we have like 20 levels for arena shop. I don't think it's a good idea to do that.

[Lord Gorgon]

İ don't think the team will look into nerfs for balancing, they will rather buff to compensate.

[Alexander]

9 hours ago, Lord Gorgon said:

İ don't think the team will look into nerfs for balancing, they will rather buff to compensate.

We do consider nerfs but prefer buffs, yes

[Shoultz262]

10 minutes ago, Alexander said:

We do consider nerfs but prefer buffs, yes

If you just buff items, soon everything will get powercreeped and buffed, which defeats the purpose. The problem with the meta isn't that energy and heat is too weak, physical is just too strong. Mainly because of dual modules, energy free saws, superb charge engine, and the backfire physical res drainer. Physical was still good before all of that. There were a lot more diversity in the meta before all of those items were introduced.

[Ad1tya]

Well I guess heat BF items are cool
Tbf only a couple of heat BF are used and thats basalt polisher and overcharged rocket battery

Yeah I agree phys weapons are way too good but again...Its also because of the new mods since no one would have dared to go ene free if these new modules werent there even after having all necessary items for the current en free META

Similar to heat, Only a few energy BF items get used...Most energy builds Dual valiant and/or bunker shell builds or UPC builds(UPC has BF but thats negligible since your opponent wont survive for long enough coz that thing rips you apart)


Long story short
Nothing needs to be buffed/nerfed yet...Its fine as it is

Maybe in the future..some items might need rework but yeah..currently everything is good

[Shoultz262]

2 minutes ago, Ad1tya said:

Well I guess heat BF items are cool
Tbf only a couple of heat BF are used and thats basalt polisher and overcharged rocket battery

Yeah I agree phys weapons are way too good but again...Its also because of the new mods since no one would have dared to go ene free if these new modules werent there even after having all necessary items for the current en free META

Similar to heat, Only a few energy BF items get used...Most energy builds Dual valiant and/or bunker shell builds or UPC builds(UPC has BF but thats negligible since your opponent wont survive for long enough coz that thing rips you apart)


Long story short
Nothing needs to be buffed/nerfed yet...Its fine as it is

Maybe in the future..some items might need rework but yeah..currently everything is good

Maybe heat or energy backfire items don't need a buff, but some physical items needs a nerf, as with the new dual modules.

[Ad1tya]

Well, I'd say the only phys item that needs a nerf is the BF armor dissolver (I dont remember the name, Apologies)
60 res drain and its way too light..maybe nerf the weight to 14 (similar to the heat and ene backfire ones but since its L-M it should be 14

Rest everything is fine...

[Shoultz262]

Just now, Ad1tya said:

Well, I'd say the only phys item that needs a nerf is the BF armor dissolver (I dont remember the name, Apologies)
60 res drain and its way too light..maybe nerf the weight to 14 (similar to the heat and ene backfire ones but since its L-M it should be 14

Rest everything is fine...

You actually think the new dual modules don't need a nerf? Or even the physical saw, it's light as hell and does great damage, or the superb charge, which just completely outclasses the regular charge?

[Ad1tya]

Ohh I thought we're only talking about BF items

Yeah the saw is pretty insane....But idk how you should tweak the item

I wont even talk about the combined mods...Certified shet...if you're an energy user...just say GG and quit....I wont even try to drain 700 cap 300 regen

The charge engine is literally an en free spartan that works at every range...another reason why energy is dying off...A possible suggestion is to nerf the damage to 175-250....this makes sense(if I reduce it more that thing is just gonna be a normal charge pro version thing)


 

İncrease elemental damage outputs of heat and electric BF weapons (with different ratios)

 

I dont think this will be good :

Most ene backfire weapons are actually really powerful

- UPC : I wont even talk about it 
- Scrapped Energy Blaster : Its underrated imo...Does a lotta drain (180 if im not wrong) and the damage is decent as well
- En guardian/protector : They're really good
I can comment on more en BF weapons but you get the point, right ?

 

[Shoultz262]

26 minutes ago, Ad1tya said:

Ohh I thought we're only talking about BF items

Yeah the saw is pretty insane....But idk how you should tweak the item

I wont even talk about the combined mods...Certified shet...if you're an energy user...just say GG and quit....I wont even try to drain 700 cap 300 regen

The charge engine is literally an en free spartan that works at every range...another reason why energy is dying off...A possible suggestion is to nerf the damage to 175-250....this makes sense(if I reduce it more that thing is just gonna be a normal charge pro version thing)


 

İncrease elemental damage outputs of heat and electric BF weapons (with different ratios)

 

I dont think this will be good :

Most ene backfire weapons are actually really powerful

- UPC : I wont even talk about it 
- Scrapped Energy Blaster : Its underrated imo...Does a lotta drain (180 if im not wrong) and the damage is decent as well
- En guardian/protector : They're really good
I can comment on more en BF weapons but you get the point, right ?

 

Only upc and the energy saw is really used. Scrapped energy blaster is crap. And the energy backfire drones are obviously used, but they have little impact on the meta.

So a buff to energy backfire items won't affect much. Where as heat will get a lot more benefit from the backfire buff if it was implemented.

[Ad1tya]

Ooohhh
Im not sure about this
buff the drones...im in favor of that
 but some heat BF weapons are already good like the ORB

[Shoultz262]

This is exactly why a nerf is so much easier and simpler to implement. Just nerf some physical items and the new dual modules. That's it.

[fig]

By my point of perspective  , 
Indeed backfire might need some kind of fixing .
But definitely the sudjestion above isnt correct on the way of thinking / calculating . 
We cant receive a 3.500-4.200 hps physical mech as the average rounder phys like was mentioned above.
A rounder phy/heat/en is arround 2.700-3.000 hps .
On the side , backfire values  differs from type to type , and phys have the most .
Note : physicals danages arent ~400 plus , but ~300 plus 
Also , lets not try to take away phys mechs advantage wich is  the damage  output.
I wish the future changes will  be really fair for all the elements ,  and to not get on the trap to favour one type .
So far  the backfire values looks fair to me in general , perhaps might need  an udjustment on specific weapons like scopes for example .



 

[Shoultz262]

2 minutes ago, TALΩS said:

By my point of perspective  , 
Indeed backfire might need some kind of fixing .
But definitely the sudjestion above isnt correct on the way of thinking / calculating . 
We cant receive a 3.500-4.200 hps physical mech as the average rounder phys like was mentioned above.
A rounder phy/heat/en is arround 2.700-3.000 hps .
On the side , backfire values  differs from type to type , and phys have the most .
Note : physicals danages arent ~400 plus , but ~300 plus 
Also , lets not try to take away phys mechs advantage wich is  the damage  output.
I wish the future changes will  be really fair for all the elements ,  and to not get on the trap to favour one type .
So far  the backfire values looks fair to me in general , perhaps might need  an udjustment on specific weapons like scopes for example .



 

Scopes aren't even a problem anymore in the current meta because energy free physical mechs have enough health to tank them. And the nerf should apply only to the superb charge, damaged armor annihilator, rock polisher and the new dual modules.

[fig]

Reading all this thread from the first post till the recent I realise that the real problem is the phys metas .
And not the backfire ....because the backfire seems pretty fair to me in general.
I would suggest to find the solution somewhere else .
Lets not think of it the other way arround .
If the problem is the new phys metas and the counters on the arena  , then I would try to fix something else instead .
Like a filter that would prevent the presence of counters on arena .
Risky and challenging , but I think the whole problem starts from there .
Because we cant receive every physical as a meta .
And we cant delete their advantage  as well , which  is the damage output .
Again the backfire values seems pretty fair for me  and well balanced considering each element.

In general what I believe is that the old L+ weapons , those with no backfire , needs a buff  but not all 

Edited December 19, 2020 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[Androphonia]

There are two kinds of backfire weapons, the kind that are low cost, very good, and outcompete/replace current non backfire weapons, as lord gorgon mentioned, and the kind of weapon that would be good, but has such a ridiculous cost that no one really bothers to use it

[CDR_Xavier]

In reality, I don't mind backfiring weapons. I don't use a backfiring eng drone but I don't mind being hit by one.

I do mind being hit by (backfiring) energy-free phys saws, even though I use hammer to push back. I also mind being hit by phys drones with backfire (as, to eng mechs, they mostly hit like truck)

I don't know why. Even if I am able to drain them (to render them unable to operate) I still see them the other (bad) way.

___

I think the reason they benefit the phys class is because the phys class happened to have a lot of hp, and the damage/hp ratio is so crucial they don't mind losing a bit (roughly 3%) of their total hp in amplifying damage (by about 15%+).

Perhaps NERF the phys one instead of buffing the others. Nerf by like, 7% to 10%.

You won't die to another person because your drone hit 30 less, but it will make me happier.