Buff Bulldog: make energy free, even if we must increase weight.

[SawzAll]

BLUF: Please buff Bulldog by making it energy free, even if it results in an increase in weight.  (Or make Reckoning and Mercy require energy.)

LONG STORY: I want to make all the "side stapler" weapons (i.e. Bulldog, Reckoning, and Mercy) not be energy free.  But nerfs are not popular.  So a compromise would be to make Bulldog energy-free like the other two.  If this means we need to increase the weight of Bulldog, then that's fine with me.  But I would say, because energy is already at a disadvantage, it should be allowed to go energy free without weight increase.

Due to the way energy works, it suffers from a systemic disadvantage.  While one loses turns to cooling their mech, or can make a voluntary shut down, energy gets regenerated automatically at every turn without costing a turn.  As such, if for example the average META mech has about 295 in regen, the energy player must do this much energy damage or higher every turn.  This requires high-drain configurations like dual malice beam,  at least one valiant sniper, etc.  And energy drained foes can still stomp you, fire energy-free weapons, grapple, and charge.

I believe therefore that bringing energy weapons to at least equal footing with heat will help level the playing field and make energy more viable.  I'm not requesting for stats that are higher than heat because I don't want to accidentally over-buff any items.  Truth be told, energy should have roughly 25% higher stats, but this request is for more or less equal stats.

I do not want to nerf any items because that's both unpopular and harmful to the game.

I'm suggesting only equal stats in the areas I mentioned to hopefully prevent an over-buff.  But feel free to disagree with me.

Please reply to this thread.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Elcent]

I don't think we need to make more weapons energy free. Weapon does feel like it hits a little short these days though. Perhaps some more resistance damage and a touch more energy damage. 

[Shoultz262]

We don't need more energy free weapons, especially energy weapons. And your reasoning of buffing these items just to have the same stats as their counterparts are flawed.

[Ad1tya]

Me imagining Diablo running dual crashers, bulldog, lightning cutter

[epicspeedster]

46 minutes ago, Ad1tya said:

Me imagining Diablo running dual crashers, bulldog, lightning cutter

full divine cancer

[Tirreggregars]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:49 PM, SawzAll said:

BLUF: Please buff Bulldog by making it energy free, even if it results in an increase in weight.  (Or make Reckoning and Mercy require energy.)

LONG STORY: I want to make all the "side stapler" weapons (i.e. Bulldog, Reckoning, and Mercy) not be energy free.  But nerfs are not popular.  So a compromise would be to make Bulldog energy-free like the other two.  If this means we need to increase the weight of Bulldog, then that's fine with me.  But I would say, because energy is already at a disadvantage, it should be allowed to go energy free without weight increase.

Due to the way energy works, it suffers from a systemic disadvantage.  While one loses turns to cooling their mech, or can make a voluntary shut down, energy gets regenerated automatically at every turn without costing a turn.  As such, if for example the average META mech has about 295 in regen, the energy player must do this much energy damage or higher every turn.  This requires high-drain configurations like dual malice beam,  at least one valiant sniper, etc.  And energy drained foes can still stomp you, fire energy-free weapons, grapple, and charge.

I believe therefore that bringing energy weapons to at least equal footing with heat will help level the playing field and make energy more viable.  I'm not requesting for stats that are higher than heat because I don't want to accidentally over-buff any items.  Truth be told, energy should have roughly 25% higher stats, but this request is for more or less equal stats.

I do not want to nerf any items because that's both unpopular and harmful to the game.

I'm suggesting only equal stats in the areas I mentioned to hopefully prevent an over-buff.  But feel free to disagree with me.

Please reply to this thread.

Overall, bull dog is the least effective premium, since it is, effectively, a worse lightning recoiler, it needs a buff, since otherwise it is the first case of a premium being worse than it's e-m counterpart.

[SawzAll]

3 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

We don't need more energy free weapons, especially energy weapons. And your reasoning of buffing these items just to have the same stats as their counterparts are flawed.

Maybe.  But the problem is:

1) You'd need to nerf the other two weapons to fix Bulldog,

2) They'd all need to be lighter in weight.

3) You'd piss off everyone who uses Reckoning or Mercy in an energy-free build.

My opinion: have fun convincing everyone that we need to nerf those other two "side stapler" weapons.

Sure, that would be the other way to fix the issue, but I feel like it would be much more unpopular.

It wouldn't just shake up the META.  It would table-flip the META, at least for physical.  And I don't think shaking up the META is the best way to do. this.

I'm not against nerfing the other two, I just think that would not be the best way to fix the problem.

Edited February 21, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Mr Lord]

Yeah I thought about that b4, this item is usless as LM it needs a buff

13 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

Maybe.  But the problem is:

1) You'd need to nerf the other two weapons to fix Bulldog,

2) They'd all need to be lighter in weight.

3) You'd piss off everyone who uses Reckoning or Mercy in an energy-free build.

My opinion: have fun convincing everyone that we need to nerf those other two "side stapler" weapons.

Sure, that would be the other way to fix the issue, but I feel like it would be much more unpopular.

It wouldn't just shake up the META.  It would table-flip the META, at least for physical.  And I don't think shaking up the META is the best way to do. this.

I'm not against nerfing the other two, I just think that would not be the best way to fix the problem.

No, those items has a low range and high weight, nerfing them is unfair 

Every shotgun has a feature, and these ones are energy free, that's why they are heavy, 

If they need nerf then all recoilers need Nerf too

Edited February 21, 2021 by TheLord (see edit history)

[epicspeedster]

1 minute ago, STARWULPH said:

All 3 old school shotguns are obsolete now, recoilers and foxes have made them useless. 

making bulldog energy free is a mistake, it would still be irrelevant.

The only way I see to buff the old shotguns to make them usable today is to keep the stats the same but increase the knockback to 2

mercy and still used due to them being energy free, but bulldog is not energy free and heaviar then recoiler

Making Bulldog en free would probably break the game, considering that when drained, bulldog can deal 600 damage, people can hold top 10 with en, and one of the setups that did last season was one that used bulldog, Kurt was able to run energy rounded, that's how OP the mods are. He finished 5th.

[Shoultz262]

54 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

Maybe.  But the problem is:

1) You'd need to nerf the other two weapons to fix Bulldog,

2) They'd all need to be lighter in weight.

3) You'd piss off everyone who uses Reckoning or Mercy in an energy-free build.

My opinion: have fun convincing everyone that we need to nerf those other two "side stapler" weapons.

Sure, that would be the other way to fix the issue, but I feel like it would be much more unpopular.

It wouldn't just shake up the META.  It would table-flip the META, at least for physical.  And I don't think shaking up the META is the best way to do. this.

I'm not against nerfing the other two, I just think that would not be the best way to fix the problem.

So because bulldog isn't good in the current meta, you have to nerf its counterparts which are perfectly fine and balanced to make it viable? How does that make sense? If bulldog needs a buff, it definitely doesn't need to be energy free, it just needs a small drain or dmg buff.

[SawzAll]

5 hours ago, epicspeedster said:

mercy and still used due to them being energy free, but bulldog is not energy free and heaviar then recoiler

Making Bulldog en free would probably break the game, considering that when drained, bulldog can deal 600 damage, people can hold top 10 with en, and one of the setups that did last season was one that used bulldog, Kurt was able to run energy rounded, that's how OP the mods are. He finished 5th.

Yeah, because we wouldn't want someone to have an energy version of the Clever Jumper mech and dominate the top 10, now, would we?  

5 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

So because bulldog isn't good in the current meta, you have to nerf its counterparts which are perfectly fine and balanced to make it viable? How does that make sense? If bulldog needs a buff, it definitely doesn't need to be energy free, it just needs a small drain or dmg buff.

I already said in the original post that I think nerfing the others is a bad idea.  You seemed to propose that we could instead nerf the other two, so I was going by what you said.

I don't see how Bulldog should be the only one that is not energy free.  It's unfair.

So if that means all three of them need to be adjusted so that they are more or less equal (or as equal as they possibly can be) then that's fine too. 

There are two problems, as I see it.  One, Bulldog is not energy free but it's super heavy like the other two, making it basically irrelevant.  Two, there are too many energy-free weapons.

So my proposal was to at least make things more or less equal by making Bulldog energy-free, despite not liking that option, because it's better than the alternative, which is to nerf the other two.

I could generate stats that would make Bulldog powerful enough to be worth using, but still, it would leave the game with a glaring problem: the "side staplers" aren't the same as a general concept.

But nerfing the other two (your idea, not mine) would at least fix the glaring problem with having too many energy-free weapons.

If you think Bulldog would be fixed by doing something different, please create a thread and explain your proposal and see if people vote for it.  I'm not the only person who has ideas, and people might like your idea better.

But still, the problem is Bulldog is as heavy as the other energy-free versions (and that was probably the original proposal, to balance them by making them very heavy) but isn't energy-free.  So its weight would definitely need to be changed.  As it is, Storm Weaver is a better weapon than Bulldog because it's not ridiculously heavy.

Edited February 22, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Tirreggregars]

2 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Yeah, because we wouldn't want someone to have an energy version of the Clever Jumper mech and dominate the top 10, now, would we?  

I already said in the original post that I think nerfing the others is a bad idea.  You seemed to propose that we could instead nerf the other two, so I was going by what you said.

I don't see how Bulldog should be the only one that is not energy free.  It's unfair.

So if that means all three of them need to be adjusted so that they are more or less equal (or as equal as they possibly can be) then that's fine too. 

There are two problems, as I see it.  One, Bulldog is not energy free but it's super heavy like the other two, making it basically irrelevant.  Two, there are too many energy-free weapons.

So my proposal was to at least make things more or less equal by making Bulldog energy-free, despite not liking that option, because it's better than the alternative, which is to nerf the other two.

I could generate stats that would make Bulldog powerful enough to be worth using, but still, it would leave the game with a glaring problem: the "side staplers" aren't the same as a general concept.

But nerfing the other two (your idea, not mine) would at least fix the glaring problem with having too many energy-free weapons.

If you think Bulldog would be fixed by doing something different, please create a thread and explain your proposal and see if people vote for it.  I'm not the only person who has ideas, and people might like your idea better.

But still, the problem is Bulldog is as heavy as the other energy-free versions (and that was probably the original proposal, to balance them by making them very heavy) but isn't energy-free.  So its weight would definitely need to be changed.  As it is, Storm Weaver is a better weapon than Bulldog because it's not ridiculously heavy.

I'd have to disagree on a few points, firstly, a slight damage buff would be sufficient to render it playable again, making it energy free would also do the job. Nerfing the other two would also be ridiculous.

As it is, StormWeaver is one of the worst weapons, what is 30 cap damage gonna do against someone with 700 cap, and besides, it has far too low damage and far too little drain to justify a weapon that has only 1 range. In  the meantime bulldog has very good damage, low energy cost, better range and resistance drain.

[SawzAll]

8 hours ago, Tirreggregars said:

I'd have to disagree on a few points, firstly, a slight damage buff would be sufficient to render it playable again, making it energy free would also do the job. Nerfing the other two would also be ridiculous.

As it is, StormWeaver is one of the worst weapons, what is 30 cap damage gonna do against someone with 700 cap, and besides, it has far too low damage and far too little drain to justify a weapon that has only 1 range. In  the meantime bulldog has very good damage, low energy cost, better range and resistance drain.

I think it gets born out in how high an energy drain Storm Weaver does.

[adc]

an energy weapon has high damage and in short range like it has that weight its a lot of unfair and energy free? no

On 2/22/2021 at 3:40 AM, SawzAll said:

You'd need to nerf the other two weapons to fix Bulldog,

they both fine and shouldnt change

[Sharnhorst]

As a player who use bulldog almost daily can say that weapon need some energy dmg buff with actual weight reduction, in all other aspects its fine weapon, just pretty niche for energy dmg builds.The real problem for bulldog coming from actual energy weakness at this point, where energy mech need most stats in energy/heat with decent hp and resist and one of biggest weight between 3 types not give anything good there.