Hot Flash

[Zylok]

Some weeks ago I noticed something that was a little odd among the e-m hybrid cannons, Hot Flash and Flaminator. 

 

Stats of Hot Flash:  And the stats of Flaminator: 

Nothing out of the ordinary, right?

Atleast, that's what you would think
 

If you compare these weapons to the non-premium top weapon drainers/boilers then you will notice something odd.. 

 Hysteria's stats:                  Savagery's stats:           

 

 

The thing that worries me is the energy drain of Hot Flash. If you compare Savegery and Flaminator you will see that Flaminator has 16 less heat damage per shot.

If you do the same for Hot Flash and Hysteria you will see that Hot Flash has 18 more drain, which actually is ~20 more because the stats on WU are a little bit off.

It's the same thing for comparing Malice Beam with Hot Flash and comparing Corrupt Light with Flaminator. Hot Flash has ~25 more drain while Flaminator has the same heat damage as Corrupt Light.

Top weapons should be better than side weapons in general. This has been so for the past 8 years.

And that brings me to my conclusion that Hot Flash needs a nerf to bring the energy damage back to a logical number compared to it's counterpart and compared to the other energy side weapons.

I think if you would bring the energy damage back to ~140 the stats of the weapon will be logical again, and it would be more balanced.

 

Cheers,
Zylok

Edited December 27, 2020 by Zylok
images went to the wrong place after submitting topic. (see edit history)

[Elcent]

I don't think you should weaken the non-premium version of hybrid energy cannon. Its worse in every single way. I'd actually suggest that the flaminator should be buffed slightly and the hot flash buffed in someway as well. 

(Before divine the hot flash used to do more energy damage but with divine Hybrid does the same)

 

[fig]

Those types of weapons include the hybrid cannons  , should be buffed even if this means weight reduce .
Now days with so many counters  those weapons should have a serius buff / reduce weight .
But not only that ...at the same time IF Gato is thinking to let counters roam free on arena then more of this types of weapons should be out !
And definitelly noo nerf ....buff yes .

[Shoultz262]

Hot flash already received a buff once, it is very good now, but not meta. The buff made it completely outclasses malice beam already, it doesn't need another buff.

[Atusiff]

Do arena buffs show in the workshop? Because my divine hot flash only says 146 en dmg.

[fig]

I ussually not trust workshop 100% 
If I am familiar with the item I calculate myself , if not and I am really very interested on this build then I do my second check .
But yes there is a button to sho/not show the buffs as far as I know . 

[Zylok]

4 hours ago, Atusiff said:

Do arena buffs show in the workshop? Because my divine hot flash only says 146 en dmg.

Yes, you can turn it on or off in the settings.

[SawzAll]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:07 AM, Zylok said:

And that brings me to my conclusion that Hot Flash needs a nerf to bring the energy damage back to a logical number compared to it's counterpart and compared to the other energy side weapons.

Energy is horribly UNDER-powered and you want to reduce the power of Hot Flash?

With all due respect, this idea is complete and utter garbage.

Also, given the heat cost of Hot Flash, I think you missed something.

Honestly, it's taken a very long time just to see ONE energy player main in the top 10 of the arena.  People would point out that there are no energy mechs in the top ten, and hardly at all in the top 5 arena, every time I would gush about how I like playing energy.  Only in the last month has this changed.

Also, I feel like you're overlooking weapons that NEED to be nerfed, of which the only I can think of is the frantic family of weapons.  Practically every weapon in energy should get a 5% buff at least just to hopefully put energy on more equal footing with physical.

I don't use Hot Flash.  Against a heat mech, it's a liability.  Malice Beam is far more useful.  

Malice Beam is better because it doesn't cost a metric krap ton of heat.

Given how weak energy is in this game right now, the LAST thing we need to be thinking about is nerfing something in energy.

On 12/27/2020 at 6:48 PM, Shoultz262 said:

Hot flash already received a buff once, it is very good now, but not meta. The buff made it completely outclasses malice beam already, it doesn't need another buff.

I don't know if I would call 21 more energy drain worth it compared to the extra 98 heat it costs.  Against a heat mech, it's a liability.  The high heat cost doesn't justify an extra 21 energy drain, in my opinion.

The only reason I'd consider the Hybrid Energy Cannon worth using over Malice Beam is the extra 15 energy capacity damage it deals.  But ironically, it deals more energy damage and costs less heat than Hot Flash.

The only advantage Hot Flash has is that you can fire it energy-free.  But let's be real here: if you're expecting to get energy broken and you're carrying two Hot Flashes, you're probably lower arena rank AND you're probably going to get destroyed by the first heat mech you see (because most lower ranking don't have enough heat cap or cool to handle two of them for very long versus a heat mech).  In fact, I smile when I am going up against an energy mech with Hot Flash because usually their heat cap sucks, and my weapons are selected for their ability to kill their heat cap anyways.

Sure, I'm basically arena rank 10, so I am not some pro.  I've been playing for 3 months.  But it's worth pointing out.

But if you don't mind a slight tangent, let's be real here: a similarly configured heat mech will kill a similarly configured energy mech, i.e. savagery vs hysteria, malice vs corrupt, etc.  With the F2P config I just listed, by about 800 hit points.  I've ran simulation after simulation in WU, and I don't think making the heat cap 1000 will save the energy mech from the heat mech, if both mechs have basically the same heat cap and cooling.  Equip the energy mech with Hot Flash and keep Corrupt Light on the heat mech and the energy mech just gets their butt kicked harder than before: by around 1400 hit points.

That's with a typical 3 heat engines, 3 energy engines, one iron plating, "monkey" torso and massive legs, and Torment and Nemo drones respectively, etc.  In F2P, Hot Flash is a liability.  It doesn't matter how "good" a weapon is if you can't "afford" the heat/energy to fire it.

Make that 4 heat engines and 3 energy engines in both mechs and the heat mech, similarly configured except heat has corrupt light vs energy has hot flash, and the heat mech is still kicking the energy mech's butt by about 700 hit points.

Hot Flash is more useful becoming food for better weapons.

Edited December 29, 2020 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Shoultz262]

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Energy is horribly UNDER-powered and you want to reduce the power of Hot Flash?

With all due respect, this idea is complete and utter garbage.

Also, given the heat cost of Hot Flash, I think you missed something.

Honestly, it's taken a very long time just to see ONE energy player main in the top 10 of the arena.  People would point out that there are no energy mechs in the top ten, and hardly at all in the top 5 arena, every time I would gush about how I like playing energy.  Only in the last month has this changed.

Also, I feel like you're overlooking weapons that NEED to be nerfed, of which the only I can think of is the frantic family of weapons.  Practically every weapon in energy should get a 5% buff at least just to hopefully put energy on more equal footing with physical.

I don't use Hot Flash.  Against a heat mech, it's a liability.  Malice Beam is far more useful.  

Malice Beam is better because it doesn't cost a metric krap ton of heat.

Given how weak energy is in this game right now, the LAST thing we need to be thinking about is nerfing something in energy.

I don't know if I would call 21 more energy drain worth it compared to the extra 98 heat it costs.  Against a heat mech, it's a liability.  The high heat cost doesn't justify an extra 21 energy drain, in my opinion.

The only reason I'd consider the Hybrid Energy Cannon worth using over Malice Beam is the extra 15 energy capacity damage it deals.  But ironically, it deals more energy damage and costs less heat than Hot Flash.

The only advantage Hot Flash has is that you can fire it energy-free.  But let's be real here: if you're expecting to get energy broken and you're carrying two Hot Flashes, you're probably lower arena rank AND you're probably going to get destroyed by the first heat mech you see (because most lower ranking don't have enough heat cap or cool to handle two of them for very long versus a heat mech).  In fact, I smile when I am going up against an energy mech with Hot Flash because usually their heat cap sucks, and my weapons are selected for their ability to kill their heat cap anyways.

Sure, I'm basically arena rank 10, so I am not some pro.  I've been playing for 3 months.  But it's worth pointing out.

But if you don't mind a slight tangent, let's be real here: a similarly configured heat mech will kill a similarly configured energy mech, i.e. savagery vs hysteria, malice vs corrupt, etc.  With the F2P config I just listed, by about 800 hit points.  I've ran simulation after simulation in WU, and I don't think making the heat cap 1000 will save the energy mech from the heat mech, if both mechs have basically the same heat cap and cooling.  Equip the energy mech with Hot Flash and keep Corrupt Light on the heat mech and the energy mech just gets their butt kicked harder than before: by around 1400 hit points.

That's with a typical 3 heat engines, 3 energy engines, one iron plating, "monkey" torso and massive legs, and Torment and Nemo drones respectively, etc.  In F2P, Hot Flash is a liability.  It doesn't matter how "good" a weapon is if you can't "afford" the heat/energy to fire it.

Make that 4 heat engines and 3 energy engines in both mechs and the heat mech, similarly configured except heat has corrupt light vs energy has hot flash, and the heat mech is still kicking the energy mech's butt by about 700 hit points.

Hot Flash is more useful becoming food for better weapons.

No offense, but that just means you don't know how to build a dual hotflash properly. You're a low ranker in any case. It is very good in the right hands, I've battled a couple of them already. If you know when to cool down, you could just get by with 500/300 heat.

And being energy free, as well as having better drain outclasses malice beam because you don't have to worry about energy stats as much.

[RaptorKing15]

They should do less energy damage than Hysteria because it's a rare to divine weapon, while Hysteria is an Epic to Divine weapon. Hot Flash should do around the same energy damage Malice Beam does. 

[SawzAll]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:05 AM, Shoultz262 said:

No offense, but that just means you don't know how to build a dual hotflash properly. You're a low ranker in any case. It is very good in the right hands, I've battled a couple of them already. If you know when to cool down, you could just get by with 500/300 heat.

And being energy free, as well as having better drain outclasses malice beam because you don't have to worry about energy stats as much.

I can't say you're wrong, but I'm not fully convinced you are right.

None of the top 10 players are using hot flash (or malice beam) anyways.

I think this is more of a build choice than it is an example of you being scientifically correct.

My experience is when I am using my heat mech and I face a player using only hot flash for their 3-6 energy weapon, I nearly always win because that weapon generates tons of heat.  And then second of all because they're an energy mech (let's face it: energy is weak and needs a buff).

When I am using my energy mech and I face a player using hot flash, they're either harder to beat, or they overheat. 

My energy mech is upgraded to the point where it usually takes a valiant sniper (or two) to drain me first.

But I'm still willing to learn.  Do you have any arena replays I can watch?

EDIT: In all the simulations I can throw at it in Workshop Unlimited, if it's energy versus energy, hot flash wins.  However, if it's energy mech versus heat mech, hot flash is still a liability and results in (on average) the heat mech beating the energy mech's butt by a bigger margin.  Which only supports my experience "even at low rank," i.e. hot flash is a liability against a heat mech.

EDIT2: I watched multiple replays of the top 10 arena players and I found one rank 1 using dual malice beam, one using a single malice beam plus valiant sniper (etc.), and one using Hot Flash.  So that leads me to believe that it's about build more than which is better.

Edited December 30, 2020 by SawzAll
Additional Information (see edit history)

[Androphonia]

On 12/29/2020 at 11:05 AM, Shoultz262 said:

No offense, but that just means you don't know how to build a dual hotflash properly. You're a low ranker in any case. It is very good in the right hands, I've battled a couple of them already. If you know when to cool down, you could just get by with 500/300 heat.

And being energy free, as well as having better drain outclasses malice beam because you don't have to worry about energy stats as much.

Telling radela that the perfect ratio is 5/3 might not bode too well when you enter 700 energy cap into the equation 

but otherwise, hot flash shouldn't be buffed. Everything used in top ranks is has a slight edge over everything else for a reason, and by nerfing hot flash, you would basically put it out of competition (although you could argue that its already out of the competition and was replaced by hybrid cannons ages ago)

[pinkpony24]

Adding to this topic, I think Mortal Bullet now needs a buff. Malice Beam is a rare item, where as mortal bullet is premium. I do not think malice beam should be better than mortal bullet. Malice Beam's buff made it a useable weapon again in the top ranks, but I think Mortal Bullet should also get a slight buff so that it is still better than the more common weapons.

[SawzAll]

6 hours ago, pinkpony24 said:

Adding to this topic, I think Mortal Bullet now needs a buff. Malice Beam is a rare item, where as mortal bullet is premium. I do not think malice beam should be better than mortal bullet. Malice Beam's buff made it a useable weapon again in the top ranks, but I think Mortal Bullet should also get a slight buff so that it is still better than the more common weapons.

In my opinion, Mortal Bullet is still better.  Mortal Bullet is range 2-4.  Malice is 3-6.

The problem with buffing one item is everyone complains that you nerfed all the others.

Anyways, sure, I don't own a Mortal Bullet, and I'm not upper rank.  But Mortal is range 2-4.  If anything, I would be tempted to use the two weapons together, not use one to substitute for the other one.