Reduce Weight on Hybrid Energy Cannon to 50

[SawzAll]

I've noticed that Hybrid Energy Cannon is way too heavy.  If one looks at the equivalent weapons in heat, it's far heavier, but for no apparent reason.  Please remedy some of the discrepancy between heat and energy (with energy being weak) by reducing the weight of Hybrid Energy Cannon to 50.  (There might be a separate thread for Hot Flash and Malice Beam).  Please read below for further discussion.

Long story: some of the stats for the energy weapons are higher, true, but this is because energy functions differently than heat, and it's necessary to give energy weapons approximately an extra 10-20% to make them as powerful in the game.

I know energy and heat function differently, but just hear me out.

I can't make the same mech as the META boiler (see the META thread) because I end up going overweight.  For example:

META BOILER:

 

MY COPY OF IT:

I know that it's not 100% fair to use this as an example, and it's not 100% logical.  I'm also rank 9, so I may be wrong.  But I feel that this is why we don't see these energy weapons in the META very often.  I feel like this is why the META uses valiant sniper, grim cobra, bright roar, UPC, and such: currently they may be the only decent energy weapons.

And I think that reducing the weight of these energy weapons above would change that.

Edited March 24, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Tiger P]

Hybrid energy cannon should add 134 heat cost, because damage, energy and max energy drain is crazy.

[Dark conon mech]

1 hour ago, Tiger P said:

Hybrid energy cannon should add 134 heat cost, because damage, energy and max energy drain is crazy.

No it should be 20 :)))))))))

[Spam]

No, we don't need more weapons that make it harder for mid ranks, if it has less weight more people will use it making it harder to use heat mechs unless they're energy free at mid ranks. 

[SawzAll]

1 hour ago, Spam said:

No, we don't need more weapons that make it harder for mid ranks, if it has less weight more people will use it making it harder to use heat mechs unless they're energy free at mid ranks. 

Is anyone complaining about, or have they complained about, hybrid heat cannon making it harder to use heat mechs in mid ranks?

I made it to rank 5 with corrupt light and flaminator.

The Hybrid Heat/Energy Cannons are rare.  I do not believe fixing a huge inequality is going to suddenly making it harder for mid ranks.  And since no one has ever said that about hybrid heat cannon, that I am aware, I don't agree with you.

Where are the people complaining about life being so difficult for physical/energy mechs due to hybrid heat cannon?  No where.

[Dark conon mech]

Just now, SawzAll said:

Is anyone complaining about, or have they complained about, hybrid heat cannon making it harder to use heat mechs in mid ranks?

I made it to rank 5 with corrupt light and flaminator.

The Hybrid Heat/Energy Cannons are rare.  I do not believe fixing a huge inequality is going to suddenly making it harder for mid ranks.  And since no one has ever said that about hybrid heat cannon, that I am aware, I don't agree with you.

Where are the people complaining about life being so difficult for physical/energy mechs due to hybrid heat cannon?  No where.

You want every weapon to lose weight

[SawzAll]

1 minute ago, Dark conon mech said:

You want every weapon to lose weight

Wrong again.  Not every energy weapon needs to be fixed by reducing weight to the same level as comparable heat and physical weapons.  I want energy to not have so many handicaps.

As it is, already, it's handicapped by:

1) Tons of energy-free weapons.

2) Energy weapons are underpowered.

3) Draining someone don't stop them.

4) Energy weapons are over weight.

Can't we at least get rid of just ONE of the handicaps energy has, please?

Edited April 16, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Spam]

18 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

The Hybrid Heat/Energy Cannons are rare.  I do not believe fixing a huge inequality is going to suddenly making it harder for mid ranks.  And since no one has ever said that about hybrid heat cannon, that I am aware, I don't agree with you.

 

I'm at the mid ranks now, and I can tell you that every 5th ene mech gas hot flash or hybrid energy cannon. Even though they cost heat this can be solved with higher cooling and heat cap.

18 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

Can't we at least get rid of just ONE of the handicaps energy has, please?

So you want energy weapons to have the same drain as their heat counter parts? 'Cause handicapping something is buffing it in a way. 

[SawzAll]

4 hours ago, Spam said:

I'm at the mid ranks now, and I can tell you that every 5th ene mech gas hot flash or hybrid energy cannon. Even though they cost heat this can be solved with higher cooling and heat cap.

To me that seems strange.  I don't recall nearly as many hybrid cannons of either variety when I was mid ranks...........

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

33 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

To me that seems strange.  I don't recall nearly as many hybrid cannons of either variety when I was mid ranks...........

The amount of Hybrid weapons have increased substantially while you were away.

About 1 in 6 players now have at least 1 mythed or maxed Hybrid Cannon in the mid ranks.

I've also seen a maxed Hybrid Heat Cannon in the low ranks (rank 17) when I was doing arena on my alt.

[Dark conon mech]

20 minutes ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

The amount of Hybrid weapons have increased substantially while you were away.

About 1 in 6 players now have at least 1 mythed or maxed Hybrid Cannon in the mid ranks.

I've also seen a maxed Hybrid Heat Cannon in the low ranks (rank 17) when I was doing arena on my alt.

Bro maxed at rank 17 thats crazy did you have base back then

[FraMMo]

Both hot flash and hybrid energy cannon are heavier than their counterparts because they're energy free. That is a common rule that applies to many weapons. Using the shotguns as an example, mercy and reckoning are heavier than bulldog since the later one costs energy. However, there are some exceptions to this rule, like the rock polisher being  lighter than seraph blade, and that's mostly because of the backfire (the seraph was nerfed  if i recall correctly).

Still, this energy weapons might need a buff, but I'd rather suggest a reduced heat cost (something like 85-95) and maybe slightly better min. damage. 

Also, Hi there! It's been a while.

[Spam]

13 minutes ago, FraMMo said:

Both hot flash and hybrid energy cannon are heavier than their counterparts because they're energy free. That is a common rule that applies to many weapons. Using the shotguns as an example, mercy and reckoning are heavier than bulldog since the later one costs energy. However, there are some exceptions to this rule, like the rock polisher being  lighter than seraph blade, and that's mostly because of the backfire (the seraph was nerfed  if i recall correctly).

Still, this energy weapons might need a buff, but I'd rather suggest a reduced heat cost (something like 85-95) and maybe slightly better min. damage. 

Also, Hi there! It's been a while.

Heat cost is fine. Also, were you on the old forum?

 

[FraMMo]

26 minutes ago, Spam said:

Heat cost is fine. Also, were you on the old forum?

 

Yeah. although I didn't use to post a lot more than now

[Spam]

1 minute ago, FraMMo said:

Yeah. although I didn't use to post a lot more than now

I posted 3 or 4 times so you wouldn't know me , but welcome to the new forum. 

[SawzAll]

1 hour ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

The amount of Hybrid weapons have increased substantially while you were away.

About 1 in 6 players now have at least 1 mythed or maxed Hybrid Cannon in the mid ranks.

I've also seen a maxed Hybrid Heat Cannon in the low ranks (rank 17) when I was doing arena on my alt.

Could you please help me (and the other players) by doing a more scientific survey?  Basically, could you fight 40 mechs (not 40 people, but 40 mechs) and record whether each one has or doesn't have a hybrid energy or heat cannon?  And if so, which of those two?  I'd like to get a more robust percentage.

1 hour ago, FraMMo said:

Both hot flash and hybrid energy cannon are heavier than their counterparts because they're energy free. That is a common rule that applies to many weapons. Using the shotguns as an example, mercy and reckoning are heavier than bulldog ....

But the heat varieties are heat free, so in this case, I don't think it's being fairly applied.  Second, the energy varieties cost as much heat as the heat varieties cost energy, so both have their downsides.

Third, you cannot easily go energy-free with dual Hot Flash or dual Hybrid Energy Cannon because the modules you don't need to allocate to energy now much be allocated to heat so you can survive the amount of heat you generate and the amount of heat you'd take while fighting a heat mech.  So in this case, being energy free is not without consequences.  A dual Annihilation mech could get away with far less cooling, for example.

Also, about Bulldog, it is not energy free, but is still as heavy as Mercy and Reckoning, which is an example of a rule not being fairly applied.  That's why you hardly ever see anyone using Bulldog: it's horribly inefficient because it's overweight.  See my thread about this.  The solution (on that thread) that I propose is to either make Bulldog lighter or make it energy free.

Basically, in my opinion this is all TactiSoft-era bull krap that we now have a chance to fix. 

Another thing to consider: even if you edit one of the WU config files and make all the energy items in the mech example towards the top identical to all the heat items in terms of heaviness, i.e. you can create a perfect copy of the boiler META into energy, that mech still loses because energy is weak.  So ironically even if suddenly Alexander waved his magic wand and fixed all the energy items exactly the way I am hoping he does, energy would still get its butt beaten by heat. 

So ironically it's hard for me not to think of everyone who says "energy is weak" but then refuses to do anything about it is sort of like someone who watches their friend drown in the ocean but doesn't jump in and swim to help him.  We all know energy is weak.  We all know nerfing combined modules would be very unpopular, and probably a bad idea.  So we're left with buffing energy.  But not many seem to want to do that.

Thankfully the balance team is working on some energy buffs that should help out a bit.

Edited April 16, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[JamAnime]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:50 AM, SawzAll said:

I've noticed that Hybrid Energy Cannon is way too heavy.  If one looks at the equivalent weapons in heat, it's far heavier, but for no apparent reason.  Please remedy some of the discrepancy between heat and energy (with energy being weak) by reducing the weight of Hybrid Energy Cannon to 50.  (There might be a separate thread for Hot Flash and Malice Beam).  Please read below for further discussion.

Long story: some of the stats for the energy weapons are higher, true, but this is because energy functions differently than heat, and it's necessary to give energy weapons approximately an extra 10-20% to make them as powerful in the game.

I know energy and heat function differently, but just hear me out.

I can't make the same mech as the META boiler (see the META thread) because I end up going overweight.  For example:

META BOILER:

 

MY COPY OF IT:

I know that it's not 100% fair to use this as an example, and it's not 100% logical.  I'm also rank 9, so I may be wrong.  But I feel that this is why we don't see these energy weapons in the META very often.  I feel like this is why the META uses valiant sniper, grim cobra, bright roar, UPC, and such: currently they may be the only decent energy weapons.

And I think that reducing the weight of these energy weapons above would change that.

Hmm...I will just say that this game is not to make the same exact build in each element. That would be boring.  You have to be creative.  What you are stating is like why not have every weapon be three types of weaponry. It don't work like that.  We heat builders would like grenade launch, but not gonna happen.  

 

It make sense that energy are over weight weapons.  It dominates in when your opponent looses all energy.  Heat does not do that.  Heat just over heats.  So, you have a chance of cooling and using a weapon. 

[Spam]

24 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

Also, about Bulldog, it is not energy free, but is still as heavy as Mercy and Reckoning,

It weights 10 kg less, thats fair.

24 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

But the heat varieties are heat free, so in this case, I don't think it's being fairly applied.

So you're saying that heat mechs which are much easier to energy break having weapons that cost a lot of energy, is better than having energy weapons that have a lot of heat? Energy is much easier to do a lotcof drain then heat.

24 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

So ironically it's hard for me not to think of everyone who says "energy is weak" but then refuses to do anything about it is sort of like someone who watches their friend drown in the ocean but doesn't jump in and swim to help him.  We all know energy is weak.  We all know nerfing combined modules would be very unpopular, and probably a bad idea.  So we're left with buffing energy.  But not many seem to want to do that.

The same could be said of heat to can't it?

You want energy free weapons that have unlimited uses to weigh less than their energy using counterparts?

Edited April 16, 2021 by Spam (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

51 minutes ago, Spam said:

It weights 10 kg less, thats fair.

So you're saying that heat mechs which are much easier to energy break having weapons that cost a lot of energy, is better than having energy weapons that have a lot of heat? Energy is much easier to do a lotcof drain then heat.

The same could be said of heat to can't it?

You want energy free weapons that have unlimited uses to weigh less than their energy using counterparts?

First, I would like to say thank you for writing a logical and well-thought-out reply.

As for heat mechs, the issue with hybrid heat cannon is they must have good energy stats because not only do their hybrid heat cannons use a lot of it, they could face energy mechs in the arena.  Heat bomb can only go so far.  This is why the boiler in the META listing has four quad cores.  (And people say me insisting on 4 x each engine on F2P configs is excessive lol.)

So a heat mech using hybrid heat cannons must compensate.  So would an energy mech with hybrid energy cannons.  The same config would likely, in my opinion, also require four quad cores.

Really, I the bottom line is I don't see a logical reason why hybrid energy cannons are heavier.  Even in customized testing in WU using a chopped-up WU config file, even if all the equivalent weapons from that heat boiler in the META were the same stats but converted to energy, that energy mech still loses to the heat boiler.  So that's why, in my opinion, you could make hybrid energy cannon the same weight as hybrid heat cannon and it wouldn't make energy mechs overpowered.

It's the same principle with distance shredder when I'm fighting heat mechs with my wanna-be CleverJumper.  Distance shredder puts out a lot of heat.  It's a liability when fighting heat mechs, no matter how much damage it does.

Thank you for reading my long replies.

[Spam]

2 hours ago, SawzAll said:

First, I would like to say thank you for writing a logical and well-thought-out reply.

As for heat mechs, the issue with hybrid heat cannon is they must have good energy stats because not only do their hybrid heat cannons use a lot of it, they could face energy mechs in the arena.  Heat bomb can only go so far.  This is why the boiler in the META listing has four quad cores.  (And people say me insisting on 4 x each engine on F2P configs is excessive lol.)

So a heat mech using hybrid heat cannons must compensate.  So would an energy mech with hybrid energy cannons.  The same config would likely, in my opinion, also require four quad cores.

Really, I the bottom line is I don't see a logical reason why hybrid energy cannons are heavier.  Even in customized testing in WU using a chopped-up WU config file, even if all the equivalent weapons from that heat boiler in the META were the same stats but converted to energy, that energy mech still loses to the heat boiler.  So that's why, in my opinion, you could make hybrid energy cannon the same weight as hybrid heat cannon and it wouldn't make energy mechs overpowered.

It's the same principle with distance shredder when I'm fighting heat mechs with my wanna-be CleverJumper.  Distance shredder puts out a lot of heat.  It's a liability when fighting heat mechs, no matter how much damage it does.

Thank you for reading my long replies.

Thank you for giving long replies, I love to read. 

This could go on forever as we both have good reasons for heat and energy, but we both prefer a different one. Heat is op at higher ranks, but it's very balanced in the fact that I've been playing a heat builds for 5 years now and form what I've seen they were only always good in legacy, and in reloaded they were good at the beginning, but  now heat sucks at mid ranks, if the enemy has over 220 cooling then even heat bomb won't do much. So heat and energy are balanced in general, heat is best in high ranks but hard to use in mid ranks, energy is trash in high ranks but, makes me rage in mid ranks.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Spam (see edit history)

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

13 minutes ago, Spam said:

Thank you for giving long replies, I love to read. 

This could go on forever as we both have good reasons for heat and energy, but we both prefer a different one. Heat is op at higher ranks, but it's very balanced in the fact that I've been playing a heat builds for 5 years now and form what I've seen they were only always good in legacy, and in reloaded they were good at the beginning, but  now heat sucks at mid ranks, if the enemy has over 220 cooling then even heat bomb won't do much. So heat and energy are balanced in general, heat is best in high ranks but hard to use in mid ranks, energy is trash in high ranks but, makes me rage in mid ranks.

Meanwhile physical is hard to utilize outside of high ranks, so each element technically has its own weak rank range and strength rank range.

Although, I would like to add that heat is also easily utilizable in the early to late low ranks due to opponents usually having low cooling from the lack of E-M heat modules.

[SawzAll]

15 hours ago, Spam said:

but we both prefer a different one

Maybe.  I love energy but I just want energy to be equal to the other two.  My overall goal is that all three elements be more or less equal and that top rank battles eventually come down to skill, not what element they picked.

15 hours ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

Meanwhile physical is hard to utilize outside of high ranks, so each element technically has its own weak rank range and strength rank range.

But currently they are not equal in their potential.

[Spam]

the elements so far are balanced if you look at the game as a whole.

[SawzAll]

15 hours ago, Spam said:

the elements so far are balanced if you look at the game as a whole.

Based on what evidence?  How could you scientifically prove that the three elements are equal?

[Spam]

9 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Based on what evidence?  How could you scientifically prove that the three elements are equal?

Well this game lacks science but yes.

Energy is good in low ranks and portals, but worse at high ranks.

Heat is good in campaign and low to high ranks, but is not as good at portals and mid ranks.

Physical is good in arena and raid, but is worse than heat and energy at pretty much everything else.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Spam
So it make more sense (see edit history)