EMP slight buff: wt to 50, dmg to 41-63, e. dmg to 404 like heat bomb

[SawzAll]

Everyone,

Thanks for your voting and your replies.

BLUF: I request a slight buff of EMP to put it more or less on equal footing with the heat bomb.  I propose EMP's weight get reduced to 50, the lower end of the damage range be increased from 38 to 41, and the total energy damage it does be increased to 404.  Please reply to this thread.

LONG STORY: Due to the way energy works, it suffers from a systemic disadvantage.  While one loses turns to cooling their mech, or can make a voluntary shut down, energy gets regenerated automatically at every turn without forcing a shutdown.  As such, if for example the average META mech has about 295 in regen, the energy player must do this much energy damage or higher every turn.  This requires high-drain configurations like dual malice beam,  at least one valiant sniper, etc.  And energy drained foes can still stomp you.

My story: I stopped using EMP by about rank 15 because I felt it was too heavy.  If EMP gets buffed, I'm not going to go out immediately and get one because I'm not an EMP user, so I'm not asking for this buff to help myself.

I believe therefore that bringing energy weapons to at least equal footing with heat, if not higher stats, will help level the playing field and make energy more viable.  I'm not requesting for stats that are higher than heat because I don't want to accidentally over-buff any items.

I do not want to nerf any items because that's both unpopular and harmful to the game.

I'm suggesting only equal stats in the areas I mentioned to hopefully prevent an over-buff.  But feel free to disagree with me.

Please reply to this thread.

[WarrMachine]

Not nearly enough to give energy a fighting chance in this meta. Since EMP is an E-M item, making it easily available to all players, I suggest the following buff. I got the idea for this buff from Elcent, credit to him. 

AT DIVINE
55kg
20-30 electric damage
250 en drain
75 en regen drain
75 en cap drain
380 energy cost, 120 heat cost, 1 use

With max arena buffs applied, it's energy drain comes out to an even 300. I believe this to be a big step in the right direction for energy mechs, as this version of EMP does effectively 375 energy drain, and it's effects hurt the opponent more in the long run, as it's now doing a great deal of regen drain. I've also made it lighter, while tweaking it's costs to ensure the user is mindful of their own heat. 

Let me know what you think!

[SawzAll]

17 minutes ago, WarrMachine said:

Let me know what you think!

I still think it's not equal to Heat Bomb.  And honestly the cap and regen, while it might help, aren't necessarily helping this.  You see, as is, energy cap drain and energy resist drain are a joke at the moment because no weapons do enough of either of them to be able to, combined, open a can of kick butt on an enemy.  I know this because I tried for nearly my entire playing history to build the best energy cap drainer (storm weaver, torment, hysteria, malice beam, etc.) and I would always come up short to roughly equal mechs with F2P heat cap (savagery, corrupt light, Nemo, etc).  Heat barely gets enough cooling drain for that to be a thing, at least in my opinion.  If you don't believe me, build both the F2P heat cap and F2P energy cap mechs in WU and fight them out: energy nearly always loses.

Again, the problem is energy is already weak because you don't lose turns to get regen.  Fighting one of the META builds in WU with a F2P energy mech is like fighting a titan because every turn they're getting 300 free regen without having to spend a turn to get it.  Whereas with heat, you'd have to trigger a shutdown to cool your mech.

So with all due respect, I still suggest making it at least equal to Heat Bomb, as I asked.  I appreciate the thought, I really do, and I'm just a rank 9 player, but I don't feel like those things go far enough.

What you proposed would actually be a nerf to EMP, in my humble opinion, because again, energy cap damage and regen damage are a joke in energy (which I plan to try to fix using subsequent suggestions).  (Emphasis only to make reading easier.)

Edited February 9, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[WarrMachine]

3 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

I still think it's not equal to Heat Bomb.  And honestly the cap and regen, while it might help, aren't necessarily helping this.  You see, as is, energy cap drain and energy resist drain are a joke at the moment because no weapons do enough of either of them to be able to, combined, open a can of kick butt on an enemy.  Heat barely gets enough regen drain for that to be a thing, at least in my opinion.

Again, the problem is energy is already weak because you don't lose turns to get regen.  Fighting one of the META builds in WU with a F2P energy mech is like fighting a titan because every turn they're getting 300 free regen without having to spend a turn to get it.  Whereas with heat, you'd have to trigger a shutdown to cool your mech.

So with all due respect, I still suggest making it at least equal to Heat Bomb, as I asked.  I appreciate the thought, I really do, and I'm just a rank 9 player, but I don't feel like those things go far enough.

What you proposed would actually be a nerf to EMP, in my humble opinion.  (Emphasis only to make reading easier.)

I didn't set out to make it equal to heat bomb. It shouldn't be, because heat and energy aren't the same. My proposal doesn't do any electric resistance drain. Please reread the stats before hitting me with an unnecessarily verbose text wall, it doesn't accomplish anything. 

My proposal drains the opponent's energy regeneration and energy capacity by 75. These are two incredibly important stats for a mech that need energy. Energy is weak because of the combined modules allow mechs to have ridiculous energy stats for very little weight, so by cutting their en cap and regen, you're providing viable counterplay to energy mechs. 

The suggestion is definitely a buff, as it's lighter, still has viable drain, and stronger effects. Although I'm debating if 55kg is too heavy, best to lean towards a slight buff to avoid an immediate runaway meta shift. 

[SawzAll]

(OFFTOPIC)  Here's the closes thing I can get to a fair shot.  Energy moved first.  Heat is using terror cry to push back in 2-4, so heat is actually doing less heat damage than energy (with last words).  All weapons are intended to damage capacity.

 

4 minutes ago, WarrMachine said:

I didn't set out to make it equal to heat bomb. It shouldn't be, because heat and energy aren't the same. My proposal doesn't do any electric resistance drain. Please reread the stats before hitting me with an unnecessarily verbose text wall, it doesn't accomplish anything. 

My proposal drains the opponent's energy regeneration and energy capacity by 75. These are two incredibly important stats for a mech that need energy. Energy is weak because of the combined modules allow mechs to have ridiculous energy stats for very little weight, so by cutting their en cap and regen, you're providing viable counterplay to energy mechs. 

The suggestion is definitely a buff, as it's lighter, still has viable drain, and stronger effects. Although I'm debating if 55kg is too heavy, best to lean towards a slight buff to avoid an immediate runaway meta shift. 

You're right, but with all due respect, the problem isn't that heat and energy aren't the same.  The problem, I think, is that people keep forgetting that they are different in a way that puts energy at a much higher disadvantage.  You get regen every turn without wasting turns.  Not so with heat.  Hence with energy not only do you fight to drain them, you fight to keep them drained, while they are kicking and charging and grappling you, (EDIT and also using their energy-free weapons on you).  With heat, if you shut them down, they don't move for a turn.

If anything, EMP should be more OP than Heat Bomb, but again, I went with equality and symmetry because I felt that was the more conservative thing to do.

EDIT: again, I appreciate it, and I'm not upset or anything.  I like useful replies, and your reply was great.  I'm just saying I don't agree, that's all.

Edited February 9, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

Oh yeah, now I remember why I left this place 

[Rambo]

Personally, I prefer WarrMachines rework of EMP over the buff. Having emp do 485 energy drain with max arena buffs + 260 from other weapon and drone, that's a rounded mech gone in one turn

[SawzAll]

14 minutes ago, R.A.M.B.O said:

Personally, I prefer WarrMachines rework of EMP over the buff. Having emp do 485 energy drain with max arena buffs + 260 from other weapon and drone, that's a rounded mech gone in one turn

I don't think there are many mechs that have enough energy to do all those things simultaneously.  First, Valiant Sniper will only give you -240 drain with full arena buffs.  Second, depending on weapons, that's 493-509 energy cap you'd need to pull that off in one turn.  And even that depends on range and weapons.

Third, if you look at the stats WarrMachine proposed, it does less energy damage, hence it's really a nerf.

I don't mean anyone any disrespect, but I respectfully disagree with WarrMachine.

And I also believe my proposal is more logical (because it just puts it on more or less equal footing with heat bomb).  If anything, EMP should be higher in power to Heat Bomb due to the systemic nerf that energy has due to auto-regen, but that's not what I'm asking for.  I'm only asking for equal footing.

Edited February 10, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Papirapi1]

I think it's a little too much. The energy drain is fine right now not too big not too small. I agree giving it more drain is a bad idea because like Rambo said it could obliterate rounded mechs in one or two turns. I think drain is not the problem here. The problem is the weight which makes it very hard to find the space for the EMP. So in my opinion the weight should just go to 55 or 60 (it could be decreased further but let's not be too crazy at the beginning) and that should be enough to make it work.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Papirapi1 (see edit history)

[Spam]

Anyone remember how the old forum was filled with people making topics complaining about EMP and wanting it nerfed

[Dark conon mech]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:00 PM, SawzAll said:

Everyone,

Thanks for your voting and your replies.

BLUF: I request a slight buff of EMP to put it more or less on equal footing with the heat bomb.  I propose EMP's weight get reduced to 50, the lower end of the damage range be increased from 38 to 41, and the total energy damage it does be increased to 404.  Please reply to this thread.

LONG STORY: Due to the way energy works, it suffers from a systemic disadvantage.  While one loses turns to cooling their mech, or can make a voluntary shut down, energy gets regenerated automatically at every turn without forcing a shutdown.  As such, if for example the average META mech has about 295 in regen, the energy player must do this much energy damage or higher every turn.  This requires high-drain configurations like dual malice beam,  at least one valiant sniper, etc.  And energy drained foes can still stomp you.

My story: I stopped using EMP by about rank 15 because I felt it was too heavy.  If EMP gets buffed, I'm not going to go out immediately and get one because I'm not an EMP user, so I'm not asking for this buff to help myself.

I believe therefore that bringing energy weapons to at least equal footing with heat, if not higher stats, will help level the playing field and make energy more viable.  I'm not requesting for stats that are higher than heat because I don't want to accidentally over-buff any items.

I do not want to nerf any items because that's both unpopular and harmful to the game.

I'm suggesting only equal stats in the areas I mentioned to hopefully prevent an over-buff.  But feel free to disagree with me.

Please reply to this thread.

No emp is fine not every weapons has to be equal to each other

[Spam]

5 minutes ago, Dark conon mech said:

No emp is fine not every weapons has to be equal to each other

exactly, especially energy weapons because they have better drain than heat counterparts(usually)

Edited April 5, 2021 by Spam (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

3 hours ago, Spam said:

exactly, especially energy weapons because they have better drain than heat counterparts(usually)

But generally that is because energy deals with a larger handicap: you get free regen every turn or so.

Which I support by pointing out that if you go to CleverName's META thread, and then copy the configs into WU and fight them against each other, heat wins against energy 90% of the time (if you pilot both mechs, etc.).

And I also support by pointing out that Alexander has already said the next buff round will be mainly energy because energy is weak.

And I think part of that is because single use weapons like EMP are horrible inefficient (based on weight) versus heat and physical.

Do you agree that energy as a whole is weak?

Edited April 5, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Spam]

In high ranks, yes but in low ranks energy is to strong and even though buffing it would make it better in high ranks it would make it harder to beat in low ranks.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Spam (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

13 minutes ago, Spam said:

In high ranks, yes but in low ranks energy is to strong and even though buffing it would make it better in high ranks it would make it harder to beat in low ranks.

Will reduce the weight of EMP make it overpowered in the game as a whole?

Because the point to me is more about efficiency.  Heat bomb is like 3x better damage and heat per weight than EMP.  And energy itself is weak as a whole.  Having weapons that are not unfairly penalized by being way heavier than their nearest heat cousin would probably help energy not be so weak.  Besides, no one has been able to explain why energy weapons are so dang heavy to begin with.  They refer back to the TactiSoft era when energy was being sort of nerfed by making their stuff heavier.  But that was a long time ago when people claim energy was overpowered.  Now energy is the weakest so there's no longer a reason for energy weapons to be stupid heavy.

[Spam]

They are heavy because they have their own batteries, also EMP does more damage if the opponent is energy drained and ignores res.

[SawzAll]

4 hours ago, Spam said:

They are heavy because they have their own batteries, also EMP does more damage if the opponent is energy drained and ignores res.

Ok, sure, but then why is EMP so heavy if it runs off the mech's energy (costs energy) but Heat Bomb is lighter and doesn't require energy (should be heavier because has "its own batteries")?

[SonnY-ku]

5 hours ago, Spam said:

They are heavy because they have their own batteries, also EMP does more damage if the opponent is energy drained and ignores res.

No, it does not ignore all the electrical resistance, that bug has already been corrected, I already experienced that bug before

[WarrMachine]

5 hours ago, Spam said:

also EMP does more damage if the opponent is energy drained

Correct, all energy weapons do this. Any energy drain inflicted to an opponent with 0 energy is converted into Electric Damage. Somewhat bugs me that this mechanic isn't explicitly stated in game outside of when it was first released years ago, as well as in the stat pop up when hovering over weapons in battle. 

EMP however, does not ignore Electric Resistance. It simply has high energy drain so lots of it's drain is converted when the opponent hits 0 energy. 

[Spam]

56 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

should be heavier because has "its own batteries"

It was a joke, but it does kind of make sense. Take it like this energy weapons have batteries(which makes them heavier) so they can shoot out energy(energy can be taken away by energy) some energy weapons have no energy cost because they make their own energy that's why they generate heat and still weigh more.

48 minutes ago, SonnY-ku said:

No, it does not ignore all the electrical resistance

oh ok

 

[Killer gamer 22322]

On 2/10/2021 at 2:53 AM, WarrMachine said:

250 en drain
75 en regen drain

That's insane. One shot and my energy cap and regen goes brrrrrr

[SawzAll]

12 hours ago, Spam said:

It was a joke, but it does kind of make sense

Oh

[GuningSnipping]

I'll just reduce the weight to 60 

[Spam]

2 hours ago, GuningSnipping said:

I'll just reduce the weight to 60 

No, there is a reason it was nerfed, and if the weight was less than that would be op.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Spam (see edit history)

[Keithon]

I believe that EMP does not require changes, it would be better to talk about a heat bomb, but for the sake of fairness, I will say that EMP still has the right to improve like all weapons in super mechs.