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Poll: the value of resistance.


How important is resistance in terms of mathematical "weight"?  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. How much "weight" should we give to resistance values?

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How much of a mathematical factor do you think resistance has in this game compared to hit points?

Like if we were going to do math where sum of all resistance values of a torso X this number + hit points = total score.

I had once proposed 4.7 since this is the average # turns in a match (per mech).

A rank 1 player I once spoke with said 10.

When I adjusted my spreadsheet to 7, the vests scored higher than the monkey torsos.

I know math isn't perfect and this is "on paper," etc.  I know the limitations of spreadsheets.  I'm just asking for your opinion: how high a "weight" should I give, mathematically, to resistance?

So I created the best poll I could.

Attached is a reference file that may help someone conceptualize what I'm talking about.

EDIT: I made the spreadsheet simpler and easy to use.  Change values in the red box and then sort.

The normal score is one that I use that's hit points + resistance x value + heat and energy stats because that can impact build.

The "Simpler" score column is just hit points and resistance x weighted value.

Enjoy.

Supermechs Torsos.xlsx

Edited by SawzAll
New Spreadsheet (see edit history)

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

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This is a difficult question to answer, as the utility a player gains from resistance can vary greatly depending on factors such as mech type (phys speeds up battles, heat slows them down) and season (1v1 fast, 3v3 slow). What I think you should be using is approximately how many times each player's mech (important: singular!) takes damage in battle on average. This is equivalent to how many times resistance affects a match, after all. 

This means factoring in every drone, weapon, and special item hit. If I were you I'd do some testing with varying sample sizes, but equal amounts of each mech type to alleviate one of the problems I've listed above. Although without any replay sampling, I'd estimate the value to be somewhere around 15-18. Like I said it's a difficult thing to accurately measure, but I think you can get pretty close. Best of luck.

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48 minutes ago, WarrMachine said:

This is a difficult question to answer, as the utility a player gains from resistance can vary greatly depending on factors such as mech type (phys speeds up battles, heat slows them down) and season (1v1 fast, 3v3 slow). What I think you should be using is approximately how many times each player's mech (important: singular!) takes damage in battle on average. This is equivalent to how many times resistance affects a match, after all. 

This means factoring in every drone, weapon, and special item hit. If I were you I'd do some testing with varying sample sizes, but equal amounts of each mech type to alleviate one of the problems I've listed above. Although without any replay sampling, I'd estimate the value to be somewhere around 15-18. Like I said it's a difficult thing to accurately measure, but I think you can get pretty close. Best of luck.

You're absolutely right.  And this is difficult because while math/stats might be helpful to predict stuff, ultimately it's not a strict science, so it's not 100% perfect.

But I'm saying this mainly in terms of comparing just the torsos to each other.

When I used a value of 7 in my spreadsheet, and plugged in the proposed balance changes to the vests, it predicted that the vests would take over META (which they did).  I'm just curious basically how much value people would assign to resistance.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

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I have always viewed resistance as 1:1 equal to health. To simply the variables assume you have 100 health and 10 resistance. 
 

if you’re opponent deals 10 damage a turn it will take 11 turns to kill you. Just the same as if you had 110 health and zero resistance.

 

it gets a bit more complicated given the variables of how much health you really have, over heating, energy drain bonus damage, resistance draining weapons  and your opponent’s variable damage rate... 

 

but all things being equal and using the simplified model it should be notionally accurate?

Edited by Fordekash (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, Fordekash said:

I have always viewed resistance as 1:1 equal to health. To simply the variables assume you have 100 health and 10 resistance. 
 

if you’re opponent deals 10 damage a turn it will take 11 turns to kill you. Just the same as if you had 110 health and zero resistance.

 

it gets a bit more complicated given the variables of how much health you really have, over heating, energy drain bonus damage and your opponent’s variable damage rate... 

 

but all things being equal and using the simplified model it should be notionally accurate?

I'm just curious as to what people think.  I guess a WU simulation or two might be helpful but even then I think I have already spent enough time on WU for today LOL

Maybe if I configured the spreadsheet so people could play with the weight factor separately, they could report back to me at what value the various items like physical weapons seem to be sorted in the right order (best to worst).

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

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I’ll have to look at my spreadsheets but I divide weight by 1 for each attribute. So if a torso weights 500lbs has 1000 HP 100 heat cap and cool, 100 energy cap and cooling and a total of 50 total resistance I divide 500 lbs by 1450 attributes for a ratio of .345 lbs per attribute. 
 

so I voted one lbs as it is the closest to most torsos. 

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26 minutes ago, Fordekash said:

I’ll have to look at my spreadsheets but I divide weight by 1 for each attribute. So if a torso weights 500lbs has 1000 HP 100 heat cap and cool, 100 energy cap and cooling and a total of 50 total resistance I divide 500 lbs by 1450 attributes for a ratio of .345 lbs per attribute. 
 

so I voted one lbs as it is the closest to most torsos. 

I updated it by adding a spreadsheet that should let someone easily play with the numbers to see what effect it has on values.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

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49 minutes ago, Fordekash said:

I have always viewed resistance as 1:1 equal to health. To simply the variables assume you have 100 health and 10 resistance. 
 

if you’re opponent deals 10 damage a turn it will take 11 turns to kill you. Just the same as if you had 110 health and zero resistance.

No offense but this is a poor example, because the effects of resistance are cumulative.

As a counter example I'll use divine Fractured Heat Armor on divine Claw. This combo has 3045 health without any additional modules. If I add a divine platinum plating (40 kg) it's health increases to 3377 but resistances stay the same. If I add a divine mighty protector (only 28 kg) it's health remains at 3045 but it's physical resistance increases to 88. 

Assuming the average physical weapon and drone hits for 300 damage (fairly realistic), the platinum plated mech will survive for about 3377 / 300 or 11.25 action points. I'll round this down to 11 because physical weapons and drones do added resistance drain. The mech with mighty protector survives for 3045 / (300-88) or 14.36 action points, rounded down to 14. Keep in mind that in this example an "action point" can be a weapon shot, weapon shot, drone shot (normal for 1 turn).

As you can see in this crude example the mighty protected mech survives for an additional 3 action points, about an entire turn longer than platinum plated mech! On top of this, it's also 12 kg lighter. An important thing that I think you've missed is that resistance reduces the damage taken by that amount every time that type of damage is dealt. It's for this reason that you'll see top ranked mechs with resistances ranging from 80-180.

Hoped this helped, resistance is extremely important and much more valuable than health!

Edited by WarrMachine (see edit history)
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On 2/23/2021 at 5:36 PM, WarrMachine said:

No offense but this is a poor example, because the effects of resistance are cumulative.

As a counter example I'll use divine Fractured Heat Armor on divine Claw. This combo has 3045 health without any additional modules. If I add a divine platinum plating (40 kg) it's health increases to 3377 but resistances stay the same. If I add a divine mighty protector (only 28 kg) it's health remains at 3045 but it's physical resistance increases to 88. 

Assuming the average physical weapon and drone hits for 300 damage (fairly realistic), the platinum plated mech will survive for about 3377 / 300 or 11.25 action points. I'll round this down to 11 because physical weapons and drones do added resistance drain. The mech with mighty protector survives for 3045 / (300-88) or 14.36 action points, rounded down to 14. Keep in mind that in this example an "action point" can be a weapon shot, weapon shot, drone shot (normal for 1 turn).

As you can see in this crude example the mighty protected mech survives for an additional 3 action points, about an entire turn longer than platinum plated mech! On top of this, it's also 12 kg lighter. An important thing that I think you've missed is that resistance reduces the damage taken by that amount every time that type of damage is dealt. It's for this reason that you'll see top ranked mechs with resistances ranging from 80-180.

Hoped this helped, resistance is extremely important and much more valuable than health!

So ... 11?

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

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