The Systemic Problem with Energy

[SawzAll]

BLUF: Energy is systematically weak and is handicapped.  None of the current energy meta mechs can beat the top heat meta mech, which proves my point.

LONG STORY: I think most SM players have become aware of the general weakness, i.e. handicap, that energy mechs have to face.  But I figured I would spell it out on paper here just in case there are those who disagree.

Here’s the top heat META mech, as of the day I wrote this.

As you can see, regen is 341 and cooling is 379.   Seems easy, but when you put all the current meta energy mechs against the top heat mech, they are easily defeated.  Here are some screenshots: all aboard the failboat!

So energy gets beaten easily all the time, and only the UPC + Bright Roar mech even managed to energy break the top heat mech.  But it still lost.

Then I thought to myself, let's try the dual valiant from old meta:

This is more or less what the old META dual valiant was.  I forgot to deploy the drone, however, which I only just noticed.

Conclusion:

• Regen being free every turn makes being an energy mech more difficult than heat.
• Energy weapons of the same kind as heat (Hysteria vs Savagery) are weaker on paper.
• You need two of the top energy weapon in the game to beat the top heat mech: if they forget to use their Swoop.  So basically energy cannot win against heat at all.
• The abundance of energy-free weapons and being able to move when energy broken makes it even more difficult.
• THEREFORE, energy is systematically handicapped in this game and needs a buff.

Feel free to reply and give your own experiences, or post WU screenshots.

Edited February 12, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

Yep, but there's another way to fix that "over the top" regen issue...

Nerfing dual modules.

Yes, I said that energy-free physical weapons were the primary hunters of energy builds... But I decided that rather than being too specific, I would point out something that is much more general across the whole board. That's why I'm pointing out the dual modules.

These modules have been a pain since the first premiums debuted as they provided a boost to stats greater than the stat boosts provided by modules that came before them (even the 2 premium storage units, which were still popular before CSU and CEU). It started a small "snowball" that slowly gotten larger and larger as more and more dual modules were released.

Soon, builds with Overload Preventor and CSU/CEU would reach high ranks because of their increased stats, making them more resistant to boilers and drainers. Then Quad Core Booster came out... Then Energy Fortress... Then Plasma Fortress... Then Platinum Fortress... And now we're potentially going to see a Maximum Fortress in the near future.

Because of these modules, builds are now capable of tanking energy drain and heat damage while shrugging it off with high cooling and regen, which is bad since physical builds are also able to use these modules to become resistant to just about everything and still maintain high damage outputs (i.e the current best meta -- Energy-Free Physical Hugger).

So if everything before the dual modules have had a downside to balance their benefits, the dual modules should also have a downside to counter their benefits.

[Nefertary Meriten-Mut]

I agree with you. A balanced Energy build needs too many modules and there is no slot for HP plates, which is why the Energy balanced has become cannon fodder.

That's why I built an Energy troll, it's the only way to face Phys and a certain kind of Heat.

Phys continues to dominate the game, with a few honorable exceptions.

.....................................

That said, what will happen when Energy has a buff? If the improvement consists of balanced Energy being able to increase HP by 300 points, it becomes dominant. Free energy heat dies and Phys will be in trouble. I see it for my troll Energy. My troll has 3000 HP, that makes it a winner in most cases when facing Free Energy Heat and 80% of the time when facing Phys.

So you have to be very careful when trying to correct something that is wrong, because the remedy can be worse than the disease.

The problem here was all the advantages that were given to Phys.

 

I think if the only way to fix this is to nerf the dual modules, then there is no solution.

They will never nerf these modules because they are the workhorse to sell more. If dual modules are the problem, then admins will tell you to buy until you get them.

You have to find another solution or at least request that access to the dual modules is not so difficult.

[SawzAll]

2 hours ago, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

That said, what will happen when Energy has a buff?

I'm hoping that the result is that energy isn't over-buffed.  I'm hoping the result is that all three types are about equal in the game in the future.  That way newbies don't feel like they screwed up by building an energy mech, for example.  That's a very common feeling, by the way.

3 hours ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

Nerfing dual modules.

Just FYI, I don't think I'll ever be in favor of nerfing anything.  Except Frantic Brute, because the last nerf didn't go far enough  

[trophy345OBLITERATED]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:13 PM, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

Yep, but there's another way to fix that "over the top" regen issue...

Nerfing dual modules.

Yes, I said that energy-free physical weapons were the primary hunters of energy builds... But I decided that rather than being too specific, I would point out something that is much more general across the whole board. That's why I'm pointing out the dual modules.

These modules have been a pain since the first premiums debuted as they provided a boost to stats greater than the stat boosts provided by modules that came before them (even the 2 premium storage units, which were still popular before CSU and CEU). It started a small "snowball" that slowly gotten larger and larger as more and more dual modules were released.

Soon, builds with Overload Preventor and CSU/CEU would reach high ranks because of their increased stats, making them more resistant to boilers and drainers. Then Quad Core Booster came out... Then Energy Fortress... Then Plasma Fortress... Then Platinum Fortress... And now we're potentially going to see a Maximum Fortress in the near future.

Because of these modules, builds are now capable of tanking energy drain and heat damage while shrugging it off with high cooling and regen, which is bad since physical builds are also able to use these modules to become resistant to just about everything and still maintain high damage outputs (i.e the current best meta -- Energy-Free Physical Hugger).

So if everything before the dual modules have had a downside to balance their benefits, the dual modules should also have a downside to counter their benefits.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER

[Char]

Make energy match heat so you have to regen energy manually and if you have no energy then you have to waste a turn getting some then attacking or some status effect that just stops you from moving sometimes. parallelized?

[iSwarky]

If energy gets buffed then physical would be the worst.

To be real, i'd nerf the heat instead of buffing energy.

[Dark conon mech]

energy was bad to faceoff against till I started maxing my mods

[SawzAll]

23 hours ago, iSwarky said:

If energy gets buffed then physical would be the worst.

To be real, i'd nerf the heat instead of buffing energy.

There has been talk about how the META heat hugger is the most OP and annoying build, so there might be some effort some day to do a slight nerf.  But I don't know if I would support that.  You see, I like heat being the way it is now because it fights the counters.

But in general, nerfs are unpopular.  So this is why power creep is just a fact of life in gaming.

[heller]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:38 PM, Nefertary Meriten-Mut said:

I agree with you. A balanced Energy build needs too many modules and there is no slot for HP plates, which is why the Energy balanced has become cannon fodder

if the problem with slots why not make a heavy strong regeneration module (same weight as 2 and with the same power of 2)

from what i know energy items are the lightest items in the game and with that module above you can have one extra slot for hp while hugger mechs doenot need this module since it wont change anything (they will keep using the same weapons)

[Deimos]

2 minutes ago, heller said:

if the problem with slots why not make a heavy strong regeneration module (same weight as 2 and with the same power of 2)

from what i know energy items are the lightest items in the game and with that module above you can have one extra slot for hp while hugger mechs doenot need this module since it wont change anything (they will keep using the same weapons)

What? Energy weapons are the heaviest in the game with a few exceptions. That's the main problem why it's so hard to make a decent energy build while also having enough HP for it to be viable. Upping the weight to 1020 could alleviate that issue a bit.

[heller]

9 minutes ago, Deimos said:

What? Energy weapons are the heaviest in the game with a few exceptions. That's the main problem why it's so hard to make a decent energy build while also having enough HP for it to be viable. Upping the weight to 1020 could alleviate that issue a bit.

oh right turned out i was using the light parts

so i tried swapping every part of the hugger mech with every energy part and what i noticed is

heat have better stats IN EVERY THING in wieght.damage.heat increase are alawys higher than energy drain

the only solution is to buff energy weapons

EDIT:the only thing i found that energy was better was the energy cap and thats it

Edited December 9, 2021 by heller (see edit history)

[Deimos]

8 minutes ago, heller said:

oh right turned out i was using the light parts

so i tried swapping every part of the hugger mech with every energy part and what i noticed is

heat have better stats IN EVERY THING in wieght.damage.heat increase are alawys higher than energy drain

the only solution is to buff energy weapons

EDIT:the only thing i found that energy was better was the energy cap and thats it

Yeah, either a slight buff to energy drain or weight limit could make it meta again.

[Jahy Sama]

Energy is fine as it is drain wise imo, just needs a few en items have their weight reduced so said builds can go for heavier mods, buffing energy drain wise will push people with less dual mods further down, buffing it damage wise depends on said increase

Edited December 9, 2021 by Jahy Sama (see edit history)

[heller]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:21 AM, Jahy Sama said:

Energy is fine as it is drain wise imo, just needs a few en items have their weight reduced so said builds can go for heavier mods, buffing energy drain wise will push people with less dual mods further down, buffing it damage wise depends on said increase

first sorry cause i dont remmber every weapon name in this game

some energy weapons have higher energy cap reduce than its cousins in heat (malice beam and the other variant in heat)

while others have higher cooldown reduce in heat than its variant in energy (viking hammer and its variant in heat with the axe included)

the problem is some heat weapons have better stats and energy