The “easy” answer to rebalancing?

[BossParodyOBLITERATED]

Okay, so I want honest opinions on this. Not opinions on if you like it, but honest opinions on if this could help make rebalancing the game easier. Okay, here we go:

1. Heat and energy mods could be nerfed

before you immediately disagree, please read through my reasoning. I see lots of people coming at phys and saying that individual items need a nerf, which is true in some cases. However, a simpler solution to finding exactly how much to nerf/buff every item in the game, what if we just increased the effectiveness of heat and energy mechs to a state where they can also be competitive at r1?

 

2. Make phys armour breakers require energy

I find that phys mechs in general rip right through most energy mechs, specifically the current 4.2k meta that runs at least 1 (often times 2) armour breaker. Against en mechs which usually have lower hp, it’s quite hard to compete. 
 

3. Make skill and time more important, not just money spent.

I believe that an easy way to do this would be to increase the amount of buff gained from divining an item. For extremely p2w players, they are able to obtain op items much more easily, and quickly implement them in their own builds and easily outclass players that have played for years, within sometimes a short few months. Fortunately, the greatest difference between these players lies in their divine items. If the divine tier upgrade was boosted to a point where it was more helpful, it would give experienced players an edge, and make it harder for p2w players to compete at top ranks immediately. 
 

4. Buff E+ items

This change would mean that those items you worked hard to upgrade in the early days would no longer be useless. The biggest benefit to this is that we would be able to see much more variation in arena, and make the game more interesting! 
 

 

Okay, I may have oversimplified some of the issues that I roughly addressed here, but I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions on each of these points if possible! The goal isn’t necessarily for my ideas to all be implemented, more to discuss possible solutions to help improve this game that we all love. 
 

Cheers!

Alex aka BossParody

[SawzAll]

The only item I can agree to nerfing is the frantic weapon family.  They should all be more or less like two shot Spartan Carnage weapons (thus, Spartan Carnage stays premium).  No other weapons or items should be nerfed in my opinion.  Nerfing is far too unpopular to consider doing it across the board.

I adressed buffing torsos here:

I would agree that all weapons and drones should require at least 5 energy to operate.  However, that would require nerfing many items, so I am against that.

I would be willing to entertain buffing energy items, but only enough to be competitive.  This is harder to do, as you can't just arbitrarily give them all +5% on all stats.  Gato Games would need to create a SM test server (separate from the SM main server) and get some people to test this out.  If we buff energy items too much, they will become the main META.  That's not what we want.  We want all elemental concepts (physical, heat, energy) to be more or less equal.

But the amount we need to buff energy has decreased because now there is a top 10 arena player who runs energy.  Please see the META thread:

 

 

[firewater789]

I think nerfing mods are a bad idea the reason I don’t run en builds is cause I can’t make good enough stats. I think the most important change needed is to lower the weight of energy weapons 

[L4K3]

11 hours ago, BossParody said:

1. Heat and energy mods could be nerfed

before you immediately disagree, please read through my reasoning. I see lots of people coming at phys and saying that individual items need a nerf, which is true in some cases. However, a simpler solution to finding exactly how much to nerf/buff every item in the game, what if we just increased the effectiveness of heat and energy mechs to a state where they can also be competitive at r1?

Why not...But still!

It's much easier and more efficient to slightly nerf phys on literally just 1 item rather than buff energy and heat on many more items.

Also,about energy...There's a problem,because items like EMPs are still around.And remember,they are the no.1 unfair shet weapons against phys and heat.{hys and heat can't drain thus are susceptible to insta-draining from EMPs unfairly.If you further nerf EMP too,then yes.Or idk,at least change its functionality because right now,it's only fair to 1 out of 3 types.

11 hours ago, BossParody said:

Make phys armour breakers require energy

I find that phys mechs in general rip right through most energy mechs, specifically the current 4.2k meta that runs at least 1 (often times 2) armour breaker. Against en mechs which usually have lower hp, it’s quite hard to compete. 

Honestly,I have no opinion on this.Never felt like this is an issue,but rather just an extra and it's pretty okay-ish,considering everything else.

11 hours ago, BossParody said:

ake skill and time more important, not just money spent.

I believe that an easy way to do this would be to increase the amount of buff gained from divining an item. For extremely p2w players, they are able to obtain op items much more easily, and quickly implement them in their own builds and easily outclass players that have played for years, within sometimes a short few months. Fortunately, the greatest difference between these players lies in their divine items. If the divine tier upgrade was boosted to a point where it was more helpful, it would give experienced players an edge, and make it harder for p2w players to compete at top ranks immediately. 

Yes,that.

And also Buff the freaking Clan Wars because it's BORING and USELESS.

And also,BUFF the bloody Season Rewards.They are worthless pieces of epic garbage ''rewarded'' after a week full of imbalances and Frantic-shitfests.Literally,there's just no god damn reason to even bother anymore,when a R12 gets  better rewards in a week than a R1 does in 3 months.

Until then,no reason to play until R1.Just 3 wins a day,give or take and that's it,because the reward is still zero.

11 hours ago, BossParody said:

Buff E+ items

This change would mean that those items you worked hard to upgrade in the early days would no longer be useless. The biggest benefit to this is that we would be able to see much more variation in arena, and make the game more interesting! 
 

I'd rathyer rephrafe that to ''Buff underwhelming/OG items to a viable state''.

Like Void and stuff.Literally,they're not viable anymore.They are useless,forgotten and myth food.Don't even get me started on Swoop or Greedy.

 

 

 

[Shoultz262]

Just now, L4K3 said:

Why not...But still!

It's much easier and more efficient to slightly nerf phys on literally just 1 item rather than buff energy and heat on many more items.

Also,about energy...There's a problem,because items like EMPs are still around.And remember,they are the no.1 unfair shet weapons against phys and heat.{hys and heat can't drain thus are susceptible to insta-draining from EMPs unfairly.If you further nerf EMP too,then yes.Or idk,at least change its functionality because right now,it's only fair to 1 out of 3 types.

Honestly,I have no opinion on this.Never felt like this is an issue,but rather just an extra and it's pretty okay-ish,considering everything else.

Yes,that.

And also Buff the freaking Clan Wars because it's BORING and USELESS.

And also,BUFF the bloody Season Rewards.They are worthless pieces of epic garbage ''rewarded'' after a week full of imbalances and Frantic-shitfests.Literally,there's just no god damn reason to even bother anymore,when a R12 gets  better rewards in a week than a R1 does in 3 months.

Until then,no reason to play until R1.Just 3 wins a day,give or take and that's it,because the reward is still zero.

I'd rathyer rephrafe that to ''Buff underwhelming/OG items to a viable state''.

Like Void and stuff.Literally,they're not viable anymore.They are useless,forgotten and myth food.Don't even get me started on Swoop or Greedy.

 

 

 

EMP isn't even that broken anymore. You don't really see it on competitive builds. Nerfing energy and heat modules would indirectly nerf all elements since all of them depends on the modules. Just nerf some specific physical items and the new dual heat+energy modules that are premium. Regular modules don't need a nerf. Everything else I agree with.

Plus emp is kind of what keeps energy mechs alive in the current meta, although it's not really used that much in competitive builds unlike upc or valiants. I do agree on a nerf to the backfire emp however.

[L4K3]

So you're saying that...it shouldn't be nerfed because it's not used anymore...?

Mate...How do I say this...

If you have a worm eating you from the inside out do you just leave it there because ''it doesn't hurt anymore''?

What the hell.Yes,you do use it on competitive builds.Yes,it is that broken as it has always been against phys and energy.Poor guys losing unfairly to an insta-drainage of 750 a turn by just epic items,as there not all prems in the world could cover for that loss.Insta-drain,insta-loss against poor sods.

Petition to kill both Frantics and EMPs.

[fig]

@BossParody thanks for the post !

1)  .....Boss , have on mind that not all the phys players are en-free counters .
Rounder phys have really hard times !!!!! They had , and they still have .
So I think the phys counters solution is somewhere else. 
Perhaps to not exsists on the arena counters ? 
This is my solution ...or rounders or pure en frees  due to arena filter ...this is the easiest balance solution towards me .

2) In case that rounder mechs have better chances through balances I wouldnt say no to make armor brakers to cost energy .
But remmeber ...rounder phys had problem and they still have problem ! so i dont think its really the time to make armor breakers cost en .

3) -

4) I agree ! E items needs buff !!! ....specifically weight reduce , for be able someone to make a counter to counters build . Try to make a rounder /counter ...you will see that you have no chances due to weight .
But definitelly the E torsos needs the hpsn buff that @SawzAll recomended .

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by TALΩS (see edit history)

[BossParodyOBLITERATED]

1 hour ago, L4K3 said:

And also Buff the freaking Clan Wars because it's BORING and USELESS.

And also,BUFF the bloody Season Rewards.They are worthless pieces of epic garbage ''rewarded'' after a week full of imbalances and Frantic-shitfests.Literally,there's just no god damn reason to even bother anymore,when a R12 gets  better rewards in a week than a R1 does in 3 months.

I completely agree with this 

Thanks for all of the advice guys!! @L4K3 @firewater789 @Shoultz262 @TALΩS  So basically what I’m taking away is that EMP could use nerf (I agree, but not right away because it’s keeping energy alive right now), some physical weapons need a nerf, and probably my favourite part, clan wars (and I assume that your statement extended to Titans as well) need buff, and frantics could be looked at as well. Honestly, I don’t believe that frantics currently pose as much of a danger given the nature of good physical builds now, but it could definitely be looked at! Anyone else have any more ideas?

[fig]

Clan wars needs recoding from the beggining  lol 

[Shoultz262]

1 hour ago, L4K3 said:

So you're saying that...it shouldn't be nerfed because it's not used anymore...?

Mate...How do I say this...

If you have a worm eating you from the inside out do you just leave it there because ''it doesn't hurt anymore''?

What the hell.Yes,you do use it on competitive builds.Yes,it is that broken as it has always been against phys and energy.Poor guys losing unfairly to an insta-drainage of 750 a turn by just epic items,as there not all prems in the world could cover for that loss.Insta-drain,insta-loss against poor sods.

Petition to kill both Frantics and EMPs.

You can't get 750 drain unless you use both emp and valiant in the same turn, and that's only possible at range 4. In most cases the opponent is smart enough to not stay there anyway.

The superb charge engine should also be nerfed.

@L4K3Plus, emp is ineffective against energy free builds, and you have to dedicate a lot of modules to energy stats to be able to use it effectively, especially other energy mechs, where often emp is misused.

[NAME_NOT_FOUND]

If you want the easy answer to rebalance, cut all drone damage by 1/2 or 2/3rds, and I am not kidding.

Right now, because of high damage drones, you can load up with 1 or 2 shot weapons because you dont care about sustaining, this applies to PvE as well since everything reloads for free between battles. Remember when you had to balance brining ammo with or using no-ammo weapons..... that was a good thing.

With drones able to carry the damage, the high burst damage weapons become more palatable in 2v2 and 3v3 since you don't have to burn the uses(ammo) on them just to get a kill, the drone lets you not shoot them as often and still get the kill with uses left to use on the next target.

When Face Shocker and its high damage showed up, it at least had limited uses, but now, there are better L+ drones with inf uses, so they can just sit up there and dish out a lot each round, breaking down the balance that used to exist with lower damage inf use weapons and high damage limited use weapons paradigm. 

[Shoultz262]

Only advantage emp has is that drain. It has a short range, massive cost, and quite heavy for a energy weapon. No offense Lake, but you just sound like you're just biased against emp.

9 minutes ago, NAME_NOT_FOUND said:

If you want the easy answer to rebalance, cut all drone damage by 1/2 or 2/3rds, and I am not kidding.

Right now, because of high damage drones, you can load up with 1 or 2 shot weapons because you dont care about sustaining, this applies to PvE as well since everything reloads for free between battles. Remember when you had to balance brining ammo with or using no-ammo weapons..... that was a good thing.

With drones able to carry the damage, the high burst damage weapons become more palatable in 2v2 and 3v3 since you don't have to burn the uses(ammo) on them just to get a kill, the drone lets you not shoot them as often and still get the kill with uses left to use on the next target.

When Face Shocker and its high damage showed up, it at least had limited uses, but now, there are better L+ drones with inf uses, so they can just sit up there and dish out a lot each round, breaking down the balance that used to exist with lower damage inf use weapons and high damage limited use weapons paradigm. 

So even nerfing the damage of old drones like void? Also, I didn't like the ammo system of legacy, where you had to waste module slots just to put on ammo. I would rather have a fast battle than slow one anyway. Plus, there is a better epic drone than faceshocker, unreliable protector.

You also sound like you don't know the meta, so I'm not going to bother wasting time on this.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Shoultz262 (see edit history)

[NAME_NOT_FOUND]

19 minutes ago, Shoultz262 said:

You also sound like you don't know the meta, so I'm not going to bother wasting time on this.

I am R3 (sometimes R2) so I see plenty of the top Meta out there. And its mostly burst damage and high damage drones. 

Drones used to be low damage but with a niche effect (-Heat, -Res, etc...) Now they are carrying high damage, acting like a third damage shot instead of niche effect. This breaks down how the game was structured (and yeah, been here since the start as well). Hell, I remember when melee weapons had limited uses as well. 

Right now, for unlimited use weapons in play, its Unrepaired X, Sorrow, and melee weapons..... and drones. (all L+)

Flaminator , Hot Flash, Malice, Corrupt..... very very low use above R4.

 

[Shoultz262]

44 minutes ago, NAME_NOT_FOUND said:

I am R3 (sometimes R2) so I see plenty of the top Meta out there. And its mostly burst damage and high damage drones. 

Drones used to be low damage but with a niche effect (-Heat, -Res, etc...) Now they are carrying high damage, acting like a third damage shot instead of niche effect. This breaks down how the game was structured (and yeah, been here since the start as well). Hell, I remember when melee weapons had limited uses as well. 

Right now, for unlimited use weapons in play, its Unrepaired X, Sorrow, and melee weapons..... and drones. (all L+)

Flaminator , Hot Flash, Malice, Corrupt..... very very low use above R4.

 

I still see hot flash and malice in rank 3, not sure about the heat versions though except on boiler builds, which are rare.

You can just accept that the game is going to be a lot more fast paced though, because ever since they introduced high damage drones like faceshocker, it'll probably won't change.

[NAME_NOT_FOUND]

That is the whole point of this thread: how to re-balance the game. The niche effects and abilities have gone away in favor of just massive damage (ie. Phys), especially on drones. If we want to balance things again, those niche effects need to be able to shine. You can't get to shutdowns and perma energy breaks quickly these days, so burst damage wins a disproportional number of times.  

[SawzAll]

10 hours ago, Shoultz262 said:

EMP isn't even that broken anymore.

 

9 hours ago, L4K3 said:

So you're saying that...it shouldn't be nerfed because it's not used anymore...?

Look, I stopped using EMP after my first month of playing SM.  For the first month, sure, I ran around doing the charge + EMP combo on people.  But as I gained rank, people gained energy capacity, and it became ineffective, so I stopped using it.

That doesn't mean EMP needs to be nerfed or buffed.  It simply means people decided to use a different method of draining people.  (I say this mainly to L4K3) Please check the META thread CleverName so kindly made for us.  Dual valiant is more the rage.  These decisions people make are done through experience, not simply because a weapon is ineffective.  EMP is effective, but just not so much for the higher ranks.  And there's also energy-free builds (like the EFA torso one I'm drooling over).  I think it's that EMP is not ovepowered, and/or the end-all uber-bomb, is why you don't see it in upper ranks, not because it's ineffective.

There's still someone at level 10/11 arena going around EMPing people.  Sometimes he beats me.  Sometimes he doesn't.

My personal choice was that EMP is too heavy AND one use to justify it.  I can build up my regen and capacity to the point that I can withstand one divine EMP and one divine Hysteria.  And that's about all anyone is going to run around with because using a 70 kg EMP PLUS all the other weapons you'd need to be viable in the arena at higher ranks is simply not possible.

I can't speak for arena ranks 1-5 but I can look at the meta and guess that this is why.

Or you could go over to the META thread and ask CleverName to explain why it isn't used at upper ranks.

My guess is all the weight used in modules to get 3-4K HP sort of detracts from it being used.

[NAME_NOT_FOUND]

EMP stops being effective when it doesn't energy break and with all the new modules, and energy free builds in the upper tiers, it isn't nearly as terrifying. In the lower ranks, where regens aren't 300+ and energy levels aren't 800+.. yeah it has teeth. But up top, its so very very rare to see because it just isnt worth it.

[SawzAll]

4 minutes ago, NAME_NOT_FOUND said:

EMP stops being effective when it doesn't energy break

It still does.  I can't speak for 1-5 arena ranks, but look at the dual valiant sniper mech.  Two X 2 shots X potential of 240 drain (with arena shop buffs).  Four shots of 240 (i.e. 960) is better than one shot of 412.

And that's two valiants = 102 kg versus one 70 kg EMP.

EMP has its place.  But saying something is ineffective just because no META are listed that use EMP is like saying Savagery is ineffective because it's not in the top ranks.  Come over here to rank 10/11 arena: EMP and Savagery are still useful here.

That's like saying the .22 rifle is ineffecive because US military uses M4/M16.  (I carried an M16 in Iraq).  It's not that .22 rifle isn't effective for civilians who hunt game that's smaller than a deer.  It's that the military doesn't think it's enough power to equip everyone with it.  I'm sure there are some special forces and odd tactics uses for .22 such as survival uses, but just because it's not the main thing don't mean it's not effective.  In fact, it excels at survival use where .223 (M4/M16) does not, in that it is compact.

Same for the FN P90.  Just because OUR military don't use that rifle doesn't mean it's ineffective elsewhere in the world.

Saying this is what we call splitting or "all or nothing" thinking.  It's not logical.

EMP doesn't need to be buffed.  And before you say it, Heat Bomb does not need to be buffed either.  META is about finding the right combination that is most effective for you and the majority of top rank 1 players.  That's just how it goes.

People told me energy free armor was ineffective and needed to be buffed, so I was thinking about using it for mythical food.  Glad I held on to it instead, because a week later, the META thread came out, and now I know how I can use it.

Just because it's not useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful for someone somewhere.

[Shoultz262]

1 hour ago, NAME_NOT_FOUND said:

EMP stops being effective when it doesn't energy break and with all the new modules, and energy free builds in the upper tiers, it isn't nearly as terrifying. In the lower ranks, where regens aren't 300+ and energy levels aren't 800+.. yeah it has teeth. But up top, its so very very rare to see because it just isnt worth it.

Yeah, that's one of the reason why I stopped using emp. Rarely can I fully drain a mech in one turn, and even then, they usually have enough regen to beat me. Or they just don't care about energy since they're using energy free builds.

[trophy345OBLITERATED]

ive said time and time again that the only nerfs needed are the mods released in 2020

 

then everything will balance out

[Lord Gorgon]

Only real solution to balance out would be to add weight on overpowered items as well as to remove the weight override.

450+ phys items that weight like a feather and that consume no energy, its way to easy to fit those on 4khp all resed mechs. Put 3 plates, 3 of those new hp/res, 2 new elec/heat boosters, literally put whatever energy free phys weaponery on top: tada, you are now a top player, very difficult.

Even nerfing those weapons by 100dmg wouldnt change much.

Fyi, tuning the weight isnt something that Gato is willing to do, "people would have to change their builds". (Fack yeah they would).

[SawzAll]

11 minutes ago, Lord Gorgon said:

Only real solution

I respectfully disagree with anyone who says there's only one real solution.  There are many different potential solutions.

I'm not saying you aren't welcome to share your opinion.  If anything, I'm encouraging everyone to share their opinion.

But I don't think there's any solution that is the only solution.  I think there are multiple potential solutions, and Gato Games will decide which is the best.

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

"buff energy"

 

Those are just the drone shots.

 

I still have resistance in this one.

 

With this in mind, I respectfully do not agree that we should buff energy since its main gimmick is that it  does a lot  of damage when it drains. If we buff it, then we will see way more energy counters and mechs of the sort. If you want energy to do more damage when the opponent to it has over 800 energy and 80 energy resistance, that you would need a whole rework of how energy works. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Liam.M.Lucas_2020 (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:16 AM, Liam.M.Lucas_2020 said:

"buff energy"

With all due respect, why are you running around with so little energy cap / regen?

[Liam.M.Lucas_2020]

7 minutes ago, SawzAll said:

With all due respect, why are you running around with so little energy cap / regen?

I don't need it, I run an energy free mech. 

They're common in top ranks, I can show you a few other energy free builds for inspiration if you would like.