Sacrifice Cannon

[OKI DOKI]

1 minute ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

Basically, Frantic Brute and Spartan Carnage are capable of beating one another in terms of damage but Spartan Carnage has an edge due to having a 3rd shot.

true.  you gave a good description. 

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

Update: 

Frantic Brute and Spartan Carnage are extremely similar but Spartan Carnage has a slight edge due to its 3rd shot while Frantic Brute has a slight edge due to the speed of which damage is dealt.

However, it entirely comes down to RNG because both weapons will just constantly win and lose against each other as long as there's RNG.

[STARWULPH]

4 hours ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

That 3rd shot really does make a difference in the long run, especially when you're dual-wielding Spartans.

Ok, good point, frantic needs nerf cause it equal to spartan... but...

Consider that some fights are over in 2 turns, try the calculations of 2 shots vs 2 shots.

That will look a bit different I think.

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

2 minutes ago, STARWULPH said:

Ok, good point, frantic needs nerf cause it equal to spartan... but...

Consider that some fights are over in 2 turns, try the calculations of 2 shots vs 2 shots.

That will look a bit different I think.

It mainly comes down to RNG and what builds are being used when the Spartan vs Brute battle occurs.

If the Spartan build has low HP and the Brutes hit max damage, the Brute build wins.

However, if the Spartan build has high HP and the Brutes hit low, the Spartan build would survive long enough to finish the Brute build off.

 

[STARWULPH]

5 minutes ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

It mainly comes down to RNG

Totally agree.

This has always been the problem with frantics, lack of tactics just rolling dice.

[SawzAll]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:58 PM, Shoultz262 said:

Why do we need a non premium version of spartan carnage? That would make spartan useless since it's premium but the same thing. Brute can stay as it is, a higher burst damage weapon than spartan carnage, that makes it unique. Although brute might need a little damage nerf.

No, as in non-premium as in 2 shots instead of 3.

What I'm saying is make Frantic Brute identical in stats to Spartan (which would nerf it) but keep it 2 shots.

Because as is, Frantic gets too close to outperforming Spartan Carnage for a non-premium.

On 4/29/2021 at 10:10 PM, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

it entirely comes down to RNG

Not really.  I have discovered some information provided by one of our players running a more or less scientific WU test on this concept.  I will release this test info in a few minutes.

[rc]

On 4/29/2021 at 5:58 PM, Shoultz262 said:

Why do we need a non premium version of spartan carnage? That would make spartan useless since it's premium but the same thing. Brute can stay as it is, a higher burst damage weapon than spartan carnage, that makes it unique. Although brute might need a little damage nerf.

On 5/1/2021 at 5:04 AM, SawzAll said:

No, as in non-premium as in 2 shots instead of 3.

What I'm saying is make Frantic Brute identical in stats to Spartan (which would nerf it) but keep it 2 shots.

Because as is, Frantic gets too close to outperforming Spartan Carnage for a non-premium.

I agree with Shoultz on keeping Brute as a unique item. Why must everything with you be similar, are you trying to simplify the game? Make it boring or lack strategic depth?

 

[OKI DOKI]

just think about the mechs diversification. we need all. 

[SawzAll]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:56 PM, rc said:

I agree with Shoultz on keeping Brute as a unique item. Why must everything with you be similar, are you trying to simplify the game? Make it boring or lack strategic depth?

 

They don't have to be similar.  I'm just pointing out that Frantic almost outperforms Spartan.  I think there should be more of a power difference between premium and non-premium items.  And so the easiest way in my opinion is to make it exactly a 2 shot Spartan.  That way Spartan is more premium.

[Dark conon mech]

On 5/5/2021 at 6:56 AM, rc said:

I agree with Shoultz on keeping Brute as a unique item. Why must everything with you be similar, are you trying to simplify the game? Make it boring or lack strategic depth?

 

Thats true weapons should be unique

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

I have a single question..

Why is there a Frantic Brute discussion in a topic about a top-mounted, 6-barreled, explosive damage-oriented, 3-use missile launcher that's good for combos involving 4-8 range weapons?

Wait- Nevermind, this is a topic about a physical backfire Bunker Shell.

Continue the discussion as per usual-

Don't mind me, I simply forgot that this argument existed in the first place.

[Dark conon mech]

6 minutes ago, W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T said:

I have a single question..

Why is there a Frantic Brute discussion in a topic about a top-mounted, 6-barreled, explosive damage-oriented, 3-use missile launcher that's good for combos involving 4-8 range weapons?

Wait- Nevermind, this is a topic about a physical backfire Bunker Shell.

Continue the discussion as per usual-

Don't mind me, I simply forgot that this argument existed in the first place.

Physical bunker shell sounds cursed

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

Just now, Dark conon mech said:

Physical bunker shell sounds cursed

That's basically what Sacrifice Cannon is, just add backfire and make it really light.

[rc]

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

They don't have to be similar.

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

And so the easiest way in my opinion is to make it exactly a 2 shot Spartan.

With those 2 comments above, you’re asking to make Brute’s stats similar to Spartan. Isn’t that the definition of similar?

With the exception, Brute remains a 2-shot. Otherwise, I'd have called it identical if it were also a 3-shot like Spartan.

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I think there should be more of a power difference between premium and non-premium items.  And so the easiest way in my opinion is to make it exactly a 2 shot Spartan.

When deciding stats, making stats easy should never be a consideration. There should always be more thought involved. That fact you mentioned easy, tells of your mindset.

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I'm just pointing out that Frantic almost outperforms Spartan.

 Almost doesn’t cut it. In the end, there can only be one winner.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

8 hours ago, SawzAll said:

I think there should be more of a power difference between premium and non-premium items.

In regards to the photos above, oh yes, there’s a power difference post balance. It sure isn’t Brute. Clearly, the winner is Spartan. Admittedly, in my experience with dual Spartans post balance, it can get close with a dual Brute due to RNG, but that occurs very rarely.

 

From my experience as a dual Spartan owner vs. a dual Brute, Brute is still inferior in comparison to Spartan.

With that said, Brute doesn’t need a further nerf. Actually, it never needed a nerf to begin with.

Hopefully, the photos add some weight to my comments, in regards to your nerfing Brute further to a 2-shot Spartan to make Spartan more premium than Brute.

 

Before making assumptions, find out the truth. In this case, knowledge isn’t the same as experience.

Own a pair of Spartan. Use it against players with dual Brute, and then come talk about a comparison between Brute and Spartan. That way, you’re talking from a stronger viewpoint, and your assessment is more informed.

Edited May 31, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[W.H.I.T.E.O.U.T]

2 hours ago, rc said:

With those 2 comments above, you’re asking to make Brute’s stats similar to Spartan. Isn’t that the definition of similar?

With the exception, Brute remains a 2-shot. Otherwise, I'd have called it identical if it were also a 3-shot like Spartan.

When deciding stats, making stats easy should never be a consideration. There should always be more thought involved. That fact you mentioned easy, tells of your mindset.

 Almost doesn’t cut it. In the end, there can only be one winner.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

In regards to the photos above, oh yes, there’s a power difference post balance. It sure isn’t Brute. Clearly, the winner is Spartan. Admittedly, in my experience with dual Spartans post balance, it can get close with a dual Brute due to RNG, but that occurs very rarely.

 

From my experience as a dual Spartan owner vs. a dual Brute, Brute is still inferior in comparison to Spartan.

With that said, Brute doesn’t need a further nerf. Actually, it never needed a nerf to begin with.

Hopefully, the photos add some weight to my comments, in regards to your nerfing Brute further to a 2-shot Spartan to make Spartan more premium than Brute.

 

Before making assumptions, find out the truth. In this case, knowledge isn’t the same as experience.

Own a pair of Spartan. Use it against players with dual Brute, and then come talk about a comparison between Brute and Spartan. That way, you’re talking from a stronger viewpoint, and your assessment is more informed.

A man of valor, dedication, and sheer [redacted] will.

That joke is used in a joking and literal sense for this situation because that's a lot of battles to be enduring just to enforce your side of a forum debate over a quarrel between 2 top-mounted physical weapons that pretty much do the exact same thing at the end of the day:

To ruin the days of others through resistance breaks and HP shredding.

[SawzAll]

3 hours ago, rc said:

Almost doesn’t cut it. In the end, there can only be one winner.

Yes but that leaves some people thinking Frantic is overpowered if it does more damage on average than Spartan Carnage.  In WU simulations, Spartan wins because it has 3 shots.  So until you have enough res/hp to survive two shots of dual Frantic, it appears dual Spartan isn't more powerful.

I appreciate your real shots, and I already knew what you concluded, but it's helpful for others to also see that Spartan > Frantic.

But I note you deleted resistance data.  That's an important part of the factors here.  In low and mid ranks, Frantic is OP because people don't have as much resistance, typically.

Anyways, besides the point.  This thread is about sacrifice cannon.  And their odd conclusion about it being irrelevant.  It's not.

[rc]

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Yes but that leaves some people thinking Frantic is overpowered if it does more damage on average than Spartan Carnage.

Well, yes, that’s the nature of Brute.

However, when Brute RNG’s fails or you’re able to survive beyond the 2^nd pair of shots (leaving Brute with no more ammo), then Brute players are screwed.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

In WU simulations, Spartan wins because it has 3 shots.

Well, yes, that’s also the nature of Spartan.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

So until you have enough res/hp to survive two shots of dual Frantic, it appears dual Spartan isn't more powerful.

Isn’t that true for any other builds?

In regards to your previous comment on WU, the fact you mentioned WU only shows your shortcoming in strategic depth. Meaning, you can only learn some much from playing against yourself. You need to play with other people.

In hindsight, I wished I never mentioned WU’s simulation to you. You only limit yourself by playing it. It isn’t the same against playing a real opponent.

Something you’ll never realize. You think Spartan is less than Brute. But I’ve shown otherwise in my previous post with the many photos I’ve posted.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

but it's helpful for others to also see that Spartan > Frantic.

With the photos I provided, I’ve shown Spartan still remains premium over Brute.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

But I note you deleted resistance data.  That's an important part of the factors here.  In low and mid ranks, Frantic is OP because people don't have as much resistance, typically.

That’s not true. People in the middle rank always had and always will have the opportunity to have decent resist. They chose HP over resist. As the saying goes, “You’ve made your bed, now lie in it.”

However, I do agree Brute slaughters in the lower rank.

3 hours ago, SawzAll said:

Anyways, besides the point.  This thread is about sacrifice cannon.  And their odd conclusion about it being irrelevant.  It's not.

That’s another subject matter. We’re talking about Brute. I’ll leave it at that.

Edited June 1, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[SawzAll]

On 4/27/2021 at 11:27 AM, Morrowseer said:

Ever since Frantic was balanced, there's really no point in using Sacrifice Cannon.

^ This is what I'm referring to.

8 hours ago, rc said:

That’s another subject matter. We’re talking about Brute. I’ll leave it at that.

It seems to me the OP is talking about sacrifice cannon not being relevant any more.  Also, the title of this thread is "Sacrifice Cannon".  I think I already replied saying why I don't think sacrifice cannon is irrelevant.

Edited June 1, 2021 by SawzAll (see edit history)

[Dark conon mech]

1 hour ago, SawzAll said:

^ This is what I'm referring to.

It seems to me the OP is talking about sacrifice cannon not being relevant any more.  Also, the title of this thread is "Sacrifice Cannon".  I think I already replied saying why I don't think sacrifice cannon is irrelevant.

It is tho

Edited June 1, 2021 by Dark conon mech
N (see edit history)

[Spam]

No, it is not half bad at mid ranks.

[rc]

On 4/27/2021 at 9:27 AM, Morrowseer said:

Ever since Frantic was balanced, there's really no point in using Sacrifice Cannon.

5 hours ago, SawzAll said:

^ This is what I'm referring to.

I had no idea you also read the edit history. I find that interesting you did that.

Well, since you did, I’ll respond to your reply after all. To be honest, since this topic was made a long time ago (a month ago), I totally forgot what was discussed here.

5 hours ago, SawzAll said:

It seems to me the OP is talking about sacrifice cannon not being relevant any more.  Also, the title of this thread is "Sacrifice Cannon".  I think I already replied saying why I don't think sacrifice cannon is irrelevant.

Oh, I see now. In my opinion, technically, the OP is correct. It isn’t very useful in the arena in regards to Brute or Spartan users.

Case in point, after recently divining my 2 Brutes, I found Sacrifice Cannon to be enticing. After seeing people in the arena use Brute-Sacrifice Cannon combo, I was eager to use it on Spartan. Lol, it got me killed the other day! Needless to say, I switched to my regular build.

Despite that, I still see value in it anywhere, except the arena. But its value is limited in my opinion. Considering it’s a minor weapon due to its 1-use, and it doesn’t mesh well with either Brute or Spartan’s 3-6 range. Mainly due to its 1-use, I consider it as a gap-filler when there’s spare room.

So, essentially, it isn’t that useful, although it can be useful as a gap-filler.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[rc]

Oof! I just realized you took the OP’s comment out of context.

Because of that quote, I thought he meant it isn’t useful. Actually, his discussion is more about a buff than about useless.

If I saw his entire post below, my reply would have been different to correspond to his meaning. Actually, I wouldn’t reply because it’s a matter of opinion that I’m not interested in engaging since his suggestions will never happen. Thus, I see no point in discussing it.

On 4/27/2021 at 9:27 AM, Morrowseer said:

Ever since Frantic was balanced, there's really no point in using Sacrifice Cannon. Frantic has 2 uses, and deals 205 - 515 damage (no arena bonuses), and has 2 uses. Sacrifice Cannon has one use, deals 214 - 520 damage, and on top of that has 123 backfire. I understand that there is no need to make physical better than it already is, but I feel that it is now redundant. My suggestion is to maybe make it 2 uses and give it slightly more damage, or make it 3 uses and keep the damage the same.

please don't flame me for this

Serves me right, I should have initially read the OP’s comments.

There’s a difference in meaning when a buff is added to the context of what he’s discussing. Please be careful when quoting people. You may end up giving the wrong impression from what the author intended.

That’s why I try to quote the entire text, so I represent what the author intended. When referring to a specific comment in a long quote, I highlight it in a different color to show what I’m specifically addressing in that long quote. But still maintain the integrity of the author’s intent.

 

However, my previous comments on Sacrifice Cannon’s usefulness still stand in regards to your comment.

Oh, man, you slugged me a cold one there. I wasn’t expected a misquote. Again, please be more thorough when quoting. I'd appreciate it.

Edited June 1, 2021 by rc (see edit history)

[Morrowseer]

When I first made this post, I was only looking at the damage aspect of these weapons. I didn't take SC's push, low weight, and low energy and heat costs, and FB's high stat costs. However, damage-wise, I stand by what I have said.

[Username4]

On 6/1/2021 at 2:55 AM, SawzAll said:

Yes but that leaves some people thinking Frantic is overpowered if it does more damage on average than Spartan Carnage.  In WU simulations, Spartan wins because it has 3 shots.  So until you have enough res/hp to survive two shots of dual Frantic, it appears dual Spartan isn't more powerful.

I appreciate your real shots, and I already knew what you concluded, but it's helpful for others to also see that Spartan > Frantic.

But I note you deleted resistance data.  That's an important part of the factors here.  In low and mid ranks, Frantic is OP because people don't have as much resistance, typically.

Anyways, besides the point.  This thread is about sacrifice cannon.  And their odd conclusion about it being irrelevant.  It's not.

WU not equal to the game

rng is different

builds r different

[Dark conon mech]

14 minutes ago, Username4 said:

WU not equal to the game

rng is different

builds r different

Frantic with spartan nice combo